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Chapter V: Talents and Traits


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#1 ffgMark

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 05:56 AM

Please submit your proofreading suggestions for this chapter here.



#2 TCBC Freak

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:27 PM

On page 93, in Table 5-1: Tier 1 Talents, Combat Sense has a listed Prerequisite of Perception 30. However, on page 97 in the description of Combat Sense the Prerequisite is listed as Perception 40.


I wish I lived around people who actullay played games instead of just calling themselves gamers....


#3 Santiago

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:21 PM

 The Pity the Weak Talent from Penal Legon is missing…



#4 Luther Engelsnot

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:14 AM

On page 95 in Table 5-3 Tier 3 Talents under the benefit of the talent Into the Jaws of hell it reads “Followers ignore Fear and Pinning.” But there are no followers in Only War and it should read “Comrades ignore Fear and Pinning.”


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#5 Luther Engelsnot

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:46 PM

The same for the Tier 2 Talent Iron The same for the Tier 2 Talent Iron Discipline on page 94 in Table 5-2: Tier 2 Talents. It reads “Followers resist Pinning and Fear.” But should read “Comrades resist Pinning and Fear.”


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#6 Symmos

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 12:04 PM

Weapon Training makes no sense.

The description reads: The character can use all weapons with Class: Pistol, Basic, Melee, Throwing and Vehicle within the group he has selected with this Talent. It does not make a whole lot of sense bundling Melee, Throwing and Shooting (Pistol, Basic, Vehicle) together. Three totally different areas of expertise. Also, Heavy is not a Class anymore (Why?), therefore indicating that there are Heavy Pistols, Heavy Throwing Weapons or Heavy Melee Weapons. On the other hand, there are Heavy Bolter, Heavy Lasweapons and Heavy Flamer etc. 

Please review and revise.

Thanks,

Sym



#7 Musclewizard

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 12:55 PM

Symmos said:

Weapon Training makes no sense.

The description reads: The character can use all weapons with Class: Pistol, Basic, Melee, Throwing and Vehicle within the group he has selected with this Talent. It does not make a whole lot of sense bundling Melee, Throwing and Shooting (Pistol, Basic, Vehicle) together. Three totally different areas of expertise. Also, Heavy is not a Class anymore (Why?), therefore indicating that there are Heavy Pistols, Heavy Throwing Weapons or Heavy Melee Weapons. On the other hand, there are Heavy Bolter, Heavy Lasweapons and Heavy Flamer etc. 

Please review and revise.

Thanks,

Sym

Heavy is still a class. It just does nothing on it's own.
Let's assume yo have Weapon Training (Las) and Weapon Training (Low-Tech). Your character now know how to handle:
Las-Pistols, Las-Basic Weapons, Melee Las weapons (such as the infamouse lightsaber) and vehicle based las weapons and the same for low-tech weapons.

He can not operate heavy las weapons or heavy low tech weapons without a penalty.
Once he picks up Weapon Training (Heavy) he'll be operate Heavy Laser weaponry and Heavy Low-Tech weapons as well.



#8 Symmos

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:21 AM

Hm… so Heavy is something else then? No Class (as per description) and no Group (as per your description). My problem with this categorization is simple: I got DH giving me Basic (Las), Heavy (Las) and Pistol (Las), but also Pistol (Flame) and Heavy (Flame); then I got RT giving me Basic (Universal), Pistol (Universal) but also Flame (Universal) - NOW I get Las (Pistol, Basic, Melee, Thrown, Vehicle but NO Heavy) and I get Heavy - that, in itself, is an auxiliary talent at best. And therefore making the whole categorization obsolete or at best questionable.

At least with DH, I got consistency. Putting melee weapons and throwing weapon in the same talent is also very questionable. Wielding a light saber has nothing to do with shooting a laser pistol - let alone a laser rifle.

I understand the need to "streamline" the weapon categorization. But this feels just - glued on.



#9 Musclewizard

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:35 AM

Symmos said:

 

Hm… so Heavy is something else then? No Class (as per description) and no Group (as per your description). My problem with this categorization is simple: I got DH giving me Basic (Las), Heavy (Las) and Pistol (Las), but also Pistol (Flame) and Heavy (Flame); then I got RT giving me Basic (Universal), Pistol (Universal) but also Flame (Universal) - NOW I get Las (Pistol, Basic, Melee, Thrown, Vehicle but NO Heavy) and I get Heavy - that, in itself, is an auxiliary talent at best. And therefore making the whole categorization obsolete or at best questionable.

At least with DH, I got consistency. Putting melee weapons and throwing weapon in the same talent is also very questionable. Wielding a light saber has nothing to do with shooting a laser pistol - let alone a laser rifle.

I understand the need to "streamline" the weapon categorization. But this feels just - glued on.

 

 

Heavy is a class. Let's go to the book of some clarity.

Weapon Training
Tier: 1
Prerequisite: None

Specialisations: Bolt, Chain, Heavy, Las, Launcher, …

 

So it works kinda like this. If there were any Las Melee weapons or Las Throwing Weapons you'd be able to use them with Weapon Training (Las). In addition you'll be able to use Las Pistols, Las Basic Weapons and Las Vehicle Weapons. The same with Bolt weapons.
If you pick Weapon Training (Chain) you'd be able to operate all manners of Chain Melee Weapons, Chain Throwing Weapons and, should you ever find one, even a Rocketpropelled Chainsaw Rifle (although those might be Heavy or Launcher class).

I'm not quite sure what you are misunderstanding about Weapon Training but let me say that it makes perfect sense to me both from a fluff and from a crunch perspective.
Simply because a character knows how to handle the recoil of a Assault Rifle (Weapon Training Solid Projectile) does not mean he will be able to know how to handle the belt feed and heavy recoil of a heavy stubber (Weapon Training Heavy + Weapon Training Solid Projectile)

 

Oh and one last thing. The Lightsaber was a joke. It reffered to the fact that there are certain categories of weapon (flame, las, solid projectile, bolt) that only apply to ranged weapons and others that only apply to melee weapons (chain, force, power).



#10 Symmos

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:21 AM

No - you misunderstand my point.

As you point out. Being able to run with an assault rifle does not make you a genius with the machine gun. BUT it is closer than - lets say: A knife (Low-Tech) and a Sling (Low-Tech) or a Hammer (Low Tech) and a Bow (Low tech) and a throwing knife (low tech).

I GET your point - and I get the point to consolidate all the minor weapons and the not very popular weapon systems in bigger categories. But with every edition we get new categorizations, and this one is by far the most questionable one.

but seeing that this is the proofreading part, and to beat the book further - the sentence you quote refers to "specialization" NOT classes - the relevant sentence can be found in my first entry.

Don`t get me started with the fact that vehicle weapons are part of the different specialization and heavy not. Does this means - a vehicle operated Heavy bolter in a turret can be fired, but a tripod/lafette mounted one is something completely different?

 

Sym

 



#11 Musclewizard

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:27 AM

Symmos said:

No - you misunderstand my point.

[…]

Indeed I seem to do. Carry on.



#12 Symmos

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:56 PM

Oh well, look at the design and the development of the weapon training talents.

First of, we got a very much broken down level of knowledge in DH. Every character had to learn every single weapon system. You had the Class (Handling and Size) like Pistol, Basic, Heavy Melee and Thrown and then you had the agent (Ammunition, Material) like Bolt, Flame, Chain. All neat and clean - not much to tell you. You needed a lot of space on your sheet.

Then came RT. The Classes were still there - but with the "universal" trait  you got a number of "similar-ish" agents (Bolt, Las, Launcher, Melta, Plasma, and SP) put together (the "some kind of projectile is flying towards the enemy" types). Primitive was left out - for a good reason. But - maybe a foreshadow - you got "Agent" Weapon Training - which in itself seems comprehensible at the time. For example, you had Flame - giving you the understanding on where to stand if you release a stream of hot liquid-based fire or acid. BUT back then, you had the Heavy Weapon Classes separated - mainly for balancing reasons I guess - and while the Universal classes of Basic Weapons and the Pistol Weapons seemed to get along fine. The Heavy variants were broken down - you needed to get Heavy (Bolt), Heavy (Flame), Heavy (SP) etc.. separate. Again, I can image for balancing issues.

Now with Only War - you have the former agents as categorization and all the classes included in a new kind of "universal" - except Heavy - Heavy this time around, attaches itself to an agent - giving you knowledge of that particular "class" - but in itself is impotent and omnipotent at the same time. As soon as you learn the "Heavy WT" once - you know in principle ALL weapons with the heavy class. If you learn how to use a Laser based Weapon - you automatically learn how to shot a Lascannon (Las) - but if you learn how to shoot a Heavy Bolter (Bolt), you are unable to properly fire a Heavy Stubber (SP), let alone as auto cannon (SP) - as long as you don`t have the SP WT. But with the same argument - the different architecture and the handling - you are somehow able to swing an axe, fire a musket, throw a molotov and fire a bow - if you buy the low-tech specialization. Again, balancing reasons I reckon.

In the end - the new system - is another take on the whole weapon training issue. One can back up every one of them with "RP-Logic" - but it is a interchangeable matter in its core. I have to wait and see - right now, I would probably run with the RT setting. As it "underlines" the military background of the guardsmen better. Vehicle Weapons, I would completely separate and put with the skill "operate" or as a single "specialist skill". I would also make the clear distinction between man handled weapons, mounted weapons and turret fire. As for Heavy… I honestly don`t know. In the end - if rogue trader is to "high end" I would rather go with the DH setting and giving the soldiers more WT to start with.

Sym

 



#13 Musclewizard

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 01:06 PM

Symmos said:

[…] 

Okay thanks for that lengthy explanation.

As it turns out I always understood the point you were trying to make (even though I didn't realize that until now).

 It's just that I don't consider this a problem. Or at least I didn't. I can accept both ways of learning how to use weapons (by agent or by class).

Upon further though I'd say that something like Weapon Training (Vehicle) might be appropriate or that one could go back to the RT way of handling things.

At the end of the day though I still consider this an non issue but I see your point.



#14 Cifer

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:45 PM

Morangias already noted it, but didn't put it into this thread, so to keep it from possibly drowning in the uncaring world of the forum…

 

Master Enginseer

P. 102, First sentence of the Talent's description reads:

"The character's knowledge of engines and their machine spirits surpasses that of the hidebound savants of the Omnissiah and their blinkered thinking."

This doesn't seem quite appropriate, considering the only possible PC user of this Talent in Only War is one of these "hidebound savants of the Omnissiah".

It's doubly inappropriate considering it's a direct copy-paste from the same Talent's description in Black Crusade, where it served the Heretek characters.

I'd suggest rewording that part ;)



#15 Luther Engelsnot

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 03:29 AM

On page 99 in the gray box POWERS WITHIN AND WITHOUT under Heretical Cult it reads: “The countless cults of the Screaming Vortex can vary greatly in their power and intent.” Which seems to be a left over from Black Crusade. I think the entry is out of place or the text should read something else, because as far as I know the Screaming Vortex is not the setting of Only War, but I could be wrong.


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#16 MILLANDSON

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:42 PM

Luther Engelsnot said:

On page 99 in the gray box POWERS WITHIN AND WITHOUT under Heretical Cult it reads: “The countless cults of the Screaming Vortex can vary greatly in their power and intent.” Which seems to be a left over from Black Crusade. I think the entry is out of place or the text should read something else, because as far as I know the Screaming Vortex is not the setting of Only War, but I could be wrong.

I'm not sure. Since the beta has regiments from Calixis in it, that'd make it close to the Screaming Vortex, making the cults there a threat.

It could do with clarification though.


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#17 Lurker1187

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:26 AM

There is a Prosanguine talent that has Autosanguine as a prerequisite.  It's a lovely talent, I'm sure, but there appears to be no Autosanguine anywhere, either in Talents, Traits, or Cybernetics.  Am I missing something, or did something get let out?



#18 Lurker1187

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:28 AM

On page 104, under the Precise Blow talent, "category" should probably read as "prerequisites."



#19 Lurker1187

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:32 AM

On page 93, under Ambidextrous, "to make the distinction mute" should read "to make the distinction moot."



#20 Lurker1187

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:39 AM

Under Medals and Honors on page 217, the Medallion Crimson gives a benefit that grants a bonus Wound that's refreshed at the beginning of each engagement.  What, specifically, is an engagement?  Is it an individual battle, a series of battles in one place, a campaign?  A bit of clarification would be good.  If you're stealth assaulting an enemy stronghold, and get into three or four separate fire-fights in the process, does the bonus wound refresh at the start of each fire-fight, or just at the start of the first one?  It's a minor point, sure, but best to spell things out.






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