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So this has been bothering me.


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#1 Panzer soldier

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:59 PM

 All of the short ranged  SSU walkers accept the Nina, are not air transportable. Yet the the artillery walker, the Ninita. the AA walker, the Nastasia. are air transportable?
Why would I want to bring my long range weapons closer to the enemy?
We have discussed the use of copper transports for walkers and no one can see the tactical advantage in them. Thier point cost outways any tactical advantage they could give.

Now they are supposed to play test this stuff rite? The rules don't even state what happens to a walker being transported by a chopper, if the chopper is shot down?
 

So I suppose my question is why would anyone bother to field a walker transport chopper?


The second topic topic of discussion is and all assault chopper army.

My friend pointed out to me that he felt that he an all assault chopper army would most likely win the next tournament. We use 250 point armies. This gives the SSU player 3-4 assault choppers depending on what he fields.

Now the Allies are weak when it comes to AA The Rattler is just a Wild Fire with a little more armor welded to it. It has the same fire power but costs 1/3 more? So my point is an Allied army is in serious trouble against a force like an all assault chopper army.
I run an Axis army with a Luther, a Heinrich, and a Stormkonig. Even with this of fire power I feel I could win against such an army 50% or less of the time. If I add more AA I make myself too weak in other categories.
 

This is not a question this is a serous game imbalance!



#2 AngryMojo

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:18 PM

 While an all assault chopper army may be very good at surviving, I doubt it'll be very dominant at the tournament scene.  The moment there's an objective inside a building the chopper force pretty much loses flat-out.  Not to mention the lack of numbers you'll have, as all the gunboats are very expensive.

 

I think the introduction of aircraft will affect the metagame more than anything, but everything will have to be played out to really tell.



#3 Dakkon426

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:27 PM

I feel I would win about 90% of the time vs an all chopper force. although I do agree that transporting vehicles feels half baked at best. but back to the all air army I feel that It is hardly a threat without land based backup. They cannot hide and are expensive while anti air is both cheap and pleniful. the all air army will be outgunned out activated and outranged the entire battle.



#4 FlorisH

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:53 PM

So on how many games are these claims based?

On paper it might appear a good idea to have an all chopper army but untill that army is used in a game, you can't make claims about how often it will win.
If one person comes up with a tactic that others can't beat then it is up to those players to come up with a list that wins and so on and so on.



#5 Major Mishap

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:44 PM

 I'd say the choppers had a very small chance of a victory, on turn 1 all will need to be deployed before enemy AA and will probably receive a 2 or 3 shots, at least one on sustained before they get in and then they have to worry about what and where the objectives are.  taking an AA force does not mean it will be deficient in other area' as all the AA units can dominate infantry, you will just need AT squads to balance it. 

 

But yes, the weapon choices of the airlift are pretty crap, you will want the artillery walker safely on the ground fro turn 1, which means you've wasted £$ on an uneeded chopper.  The AT KV is an ideal candidate for airlift though due to its short range, so it might be a case of converting a normal KV or weapon swop to make use of the other chopper.

The walker just rolls one dice as per rules if on board a killed chopper.



#6 Sgt. G

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 04:25 AM

 

 the all chopper army is still in the theroy phase ..as all the choppers arnt out yet.

i want to provicate some of this thread by saying that what was said was " will win the next tourny".. in a tourny the number of balanced lists far exceads a lopsided lists … so in a normal list..how much AA is there really? and how hard is it to really know what those units are and just kill them first? I have seen first hand just how hard it is to kill a chopper, and to do it in one turn take ALOT of focus fire and commitment. just to kill one, leaving every thing else around to run amock.

 it was most the shock factor and unperpardness that will win many games ..and with a good player ( as the person we will not mention here that is building this dread fleet , is ) this is not as weak a list/idea as one might seem..

 

 stop looking at the paper..and roll some dice..relook at how much it really takes to kill them…

 

i am in NO way saying this is the end all be all of uber meta gaming lists..im saying they are going the change the game vastly..and im looking forward to it.

 

 besides..it will look amazing!



#7 Panzer soldier

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:41 PM

True I thought about objectives in a building. The player could field a small infantry force, perhaps even mounted in a chopper. This would still allow him to field 3 assault choppers, which is still very formidable.
Play testing this type of army is at the top of my lists of things to do.
Major Mishap I'm confused as to how you are going to engage choppers on the first round. The latest rules limit AA fire to 6 spaces only. Now given that a chopper has a movement of two and ignores all terrain. I believe will allow a smart player to get the first shot in on most opponents. I can't see how AA with a range of 6  is going to get 2-3 shots in on a piece that moves 4 spaces per turn. Also the rocket pods and dual 50mm guns have a range of 4 and are deadly.
Also putting to may points into AA units, especially for an allied army, is going to make you vulnerable to an army like mine. Which consists mainly of heavy and medium walkers. 
I am with you on the converting of the transport choppers, that is a great way to save coin.
As SGT-G said this is allot more resilient force than most give it credit for. Besides the site has been rather  boring the past few days. At least we have something good to discuss.



#8 Major Mishap

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 08:36 PM

 I've been playing the Zverograd campaign and they do get shot at on turn one the maps don't allow you not to and with a low model count the enemy are going to get the advantage of initiative, wait for your choppers to arrive and shoot.  The choppers then have to move to get in range of the 50mm so no sustained fire, the AA get sustained fire.  You can deep strike the choppers on turn 1, AA comes on and shoots down 1 chopper before you even get to shoot.

Basically AA pretty much always get to shoot first unless you cheese out and get a lot of radio ops.  Once in, the choppers are deadly, but it really is down to the initiative roll off on turn 2 to see how deadly they are.



#9 smith2332

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 06:33 AM

Major Mishap said:

 I've been playing the Zverograd campaign and they do get shot at on turn one the maps don't allow you not to and with a low model count the enemy are going to get the advantage of initiative, wait for your choppers to arrive and shoot.  The choppers then have to move to get in range of the 50mm so no sustained fire, the AA get sustained fire.  You can deep strike the choppers on turn 1, AA comes on and shoots down 1 chopper before you even get to shoot.

Basically AA pretty much always get to shoot first unless you cheese out and get a lot of radio ops.  Once in, the choppers are deadly, but it really is down to the initiative roll off on turn 2 to see how deadly they are.

Well you could just add some Observers to your chopper squad so you don't get out activated so badly, then I could use advanced deployment with my choppers and place them right next to your AA weapons on turn 1.  Then with Legendary Tactician Im almost gauranteed to win turn 2 initiative roll and then you would have to feel the wrath of the choppers first.  Sounds like to me you have been playing someone who doesnt understand the value of having enough units to activate so you dont get free shots off on turn 1.  

The strength in the SSU is the ability to use Advanced Deployment with the choppers because of the Hero with Legendary Tactician almost always wins you the initiative roll round 2, you don't use that and are out activated then yes of course the SSU is going to seem like they suck cause you not using there strengths.  



#10 Sgt. G

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 09:18 AM

 

 and sadly.. the missions out of that book are a poor showing for what they can or can not do..

 



#11 Major Mishap

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 09:47 AM

smith2332 said:

Major Mishap said:

 

 I've been playing the Zverograd campaign and they do get shot at on turn one the maps don't allow you not to and with a low model count the enemy are going to get the advantage of initiative, wait for your choppers to arrive and shoot.  The choppers then have to move to get in range of the 50mm so no sustained fire, the AA get sustained fire.  You can deep strike the choppers on turn 1, AA comes on and shoots down 1 chopper before you even get to shoot.

Basically AA pretty much always get to shoot first unless you cheese out and get a lot of radio ops.  Once in, the choppers are deadly, but it really is down to the initiative roll off on turn 2 to see how deadly they are.

 

 

Well you could just add some Observers to your chopper squad so you don't get out activated so badly, then I could use advanced deployment with my choppers and place them right next to your AA weapons on turn 1.  Then with Legendary Tactician Im almost gauranteed to win turn 2 initiative roll and then you would have to feel the wrath of the choppers first.  Sounds like to me you have been playing someone who doesnt understand the value of having enough units to activate so you dont get free shots off on turn 1.  

The strength in the SSU is the ability to use Advanced Deployment with the choppers because of the Hero with Legendary Tactician almost always wins you the initiative roll round 2, you don't use that and are out activated then yes of course the SSU is going to seem like they suck cause you not using there strengths.  

Haven't used Yakov yet as he is not out, I do intend on using him as a count-as for the last Zverograd mission though for his protection as the SSU will always get initiative for that battle anyway.  We can counter argue all the time about what can or can't be done to counter choppers/AA but on the table it matters nowt as its down to the dice at the end of the day.  And if the choppers do all end up on turn 2 next to the enemy AA by having 4 more units (highly unlikely), they will just take it in turns to blow each other up and the choppers will be losing a lot more points per kill than the AA.  We have been playing the game since it comes out and are fully aware of the benefit of having more units than your opponant which is why I'm trying to buy the Chinese without copters - no luck there :(






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