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A Bit Too Much?


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#1 venkelos

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:41 AM

So, I have a terrible idea, but I am wondering how terrible other people might think it is? The idea? IG Jetpack Troopers.

Okay, I am one of those people who look at the Guard, and sometimes complain that they don't get some of the good stuff. Some of that is item cost, some is the limitations of the minis range, and no matter how much that might annoy us, a great deal of the things in these books comes directly from those codices. I've never been so happy that Guard don't get bikes. I think they could really benefit from a high-mobility unit, maybe with a mounted special weapon, and an extra point of Toughness. I would've liked to see some jeep-like vehicles, but they don't get those either; only Orks got trikes, jeeps, and other crap, and they still get looted LRBTs.

The end point of this post, what would people think of having an available option be jetpacks? Now, they aren't very common, but I don't want them to be; they can be a rare upgrade of sorts. All the character would need is the pack, carapace armor to mostly shield them from the pack (and none of the books I've seen them in say Power Armor is REQUIRED; yes, I know that Assault Marines and Seraphim wear PA, but they do without the packs, too), and the Pilot (personal) skill. I can easily see a group, say the Elysians, who don't make use of heavy vehicles, modifying their tactics by using jetpack hit-and-run attacks.

What do others think of this thought? I know it won't appear in the main book, or probably any OW book, since the Guard aren't known for having jetpacks, but it's an easy mod, and doesn't demand anything that would grossly unbalance the game (a Flyer 12 Guardsman is still no worse than a Flyer 12 Assault Marine), or be hard to slip into the book, assuming jetpacks won't be in it.



#2 Braddoc

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:23 AM

Back in 1st or 2nd Ed, the Ig had access to assault trooeprs, armed with pistosl and chainsword, and they even had the option to be equipped with jetpacks (at 10pts/model) hell, the old IG even had land speeders!  But it was changed when they took out the next edtion in favour of the IG being the IG we all know.

 

but fine by me jetpacks guardsmen, must be form a tehcno-advanced worls, no feral worlders please.



#3 Erborn

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 06:39 AM

Please kindly notice the already-mentioned Elysians have the so-called 'grav-chutes': a kind of stripped-down jump pack, which allows them to deep strike, but is not good enough to jump around the battlefield. Anything more complex (such as seraphim or astartes pattern jump packs) seem unlikely, in my opinion.

It all comes down to human stamina and toughness, I reckon. It's one thing for a genetically-superior or power armour-encased soldier to jump around the battlefield with a rocket strapped to his back, and quite another - for an ordinary (even very muscular) man to do the same. There is also the matter of fuel: in case of power armour the jump pack could be tapped into the armour internal power supply, in case of carapace armour a fuel cistern or a separately insltalled power source would be required. Both options would increase already considerable bulk of the jump pack, making it unwieldy and cumbersome in the extreme.

Besides, guardsmen - let's face it - are the cannon fodder of the Imperium. Some regiments are valued more than others, of course, but in general they're expendable, and indeed expected to die in droves. You don't issue the cheap shock troops with premium and expensive equipment, it's far more valuable than the men who use it. A callous outlook, perhaps, but the war has its own logic and ethics.



#4 Cifer

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 07:44 AM

*shrug* Do whatever suits you, I doubt the GW canon police will storm your home.

That being said, I think the Elysian grav-chute is pretty much the limit of what's common in the guard. Bikes would probably exist, as they're useful, relatively lowtech and cheap. Jetpacks would run into the issues mentioned by Erborn.



#5 Face Eater

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 08:35 AM

I'll say it again, like some sort of mantra, the Imperial guard are the most diverse fighting force in the galaxy. Just cause they have only one codex doesn't mean they have less stuff than Space Marines, just less of it makes it into the rules. This is why, there's so much stuff on Forge World for the guard and they still aren't complete. They haven't even done all of the stuff that was available in Epic scale.

So bikes, trucks, fine. In fact I think the entry for Rough Riders in the codex says it can be bikes.

Even though it seems like something wouldn't be cost effective just means that it's not at all common. There could still be a super rich world that gives it's troops the best stuff or one of the ancient gene enchanced super regiments like they have on Terra that doesn't still rock that ****.

However… Jet packs (and Jet bikes for that matter) seems to be a kind of a super rarity since the heresy. Even the Space Marines don't have that stuff regularly anymore.



#6 venkelos

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 09:22 AM

Erborn said:

Besides, guardsmen - let's face it - are the cannon fodder of the Imperium. Some regiments are valued more than others, of course, but in general they're expendable, and indeed expected to die in droves. You don't issue the cheap shock troops with premium and expensive equipment, it's far more valuable than the men who use it. A callous outlook, perhaps, but the war has its own logic and ethics.

I understand that, and such has been my very argument on some other threads here, but since it is what we will be playing, I like some ideas that differ them from the meat grinder fodder I have come to know. I want to feel like my Guardsman is special/important, so he will have a reason to survive the first battle. I don't need/want excessive things (jetpacks are probably excessive), but I do want to know that, while I'm not playing DW/RT/DH, my character will still share some of the milestones I personally look for, such as getting to use some unusual gear.



#7 andrewm9

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 09:32 AM

venkelos said:

Erborn said:

 

Besides, guardsmen - let's face it - are the cannon fodder of the Imperium. Some regiments are valued more than others, of course, but in general they're expendable, and indeed expected to die in droves. You don't issue the cheap shock troops with premium and expensive equipment, it's far more valuable than the men who use it. A callous outlook, perhaps, but the war has its own logic and ethics.

 

 

I understand that, and such has been my very argument on some other threads here, but since it is what we will be playing, I like some ideas that differ them from the meat grinder fodder I have come to know. I want to feel like my Guardsman is special/important, so he will have a reason to survive the first battle. I don't need/want excessive things (jetpacks are probably excessive), but I do want to know that, while I'm not playing DW/RT/DH, my character will still share some of the milestones I personally look for, such as getting to use some unusual gear.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that Pc guardsmen will be the guys with plasma guns, melta guns, the odd bolt weapon, etc. Some PC's may even start with some like the Commissar. Teh Commissar almost assuredly starts with a bolt pistol. Power weapons seem likely for 'leader types' as well.



#8 Tallthulu

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 12:18 PM

 in the Imperium, jetpacks are a rare commodity that are made on few forge worlds thereby making it hard to replace and maintain the tech.

All forgeworlds can pump out Chimeras and most can even make a Leman Russ (or a cheap knockoff).

Logistically it makes more sense for the IG to fight like an up-armoured USSR circa WWII. 

I"m not saying it's "A Bit Too Much" but you are more likely to see that sort of thing in a RT's personal army… campaign idea, anyone? 



#9 Lightbringer

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 11:41 PM

I don't think it's a bit too much at all…

 



#10 borithan

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 12:49 AM

That is a picture from 1st edition (where they could indeed have jump-pack troops). However, Warhammer 40k has changed quite a bit from then, and it doesn't really fit with the current portrayal of the guard.

Of course the OP can do whatever he wants with his campaign. I personally wouldn't as it doesn't fit with the image of the Guard I personally hold to (Red Army IN SPAACEE! with some slight variation).

I wouldn't ignore bikes for a "hit and run" unit. Yes, they don't get them rules wise officially, but they are a lot less out of place than jump packs and as someone else has said, I think it has been stated that bike mounted troops could just be treated as Rough Riders. A similar view could be taken for jeep like vehicles (though I am less keen on them, again purely for stylistic reasons).

Basically I would personally just let them have bikes over them getting jump packs.



#11 dvang

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 04:55 AM

I agree. IG are pretty much equipped with cheap and/or durable items that require relatively little maintenance, or low-level maintenance. This is barring a few 'special' support weapons or items to increase the effectiveness of the unit (like plasma guns, etc). That is why the lasgun is the primary weapon of the IG.  It is cheap to produce, easy to maintain, and can recharge to replace ammunition.  Equipping a whole unit with jetpacks seems counter-intuitive to this philosophy.  I could more likely see a single "forward recon" individual, who has proven himself, be issued a jetpack rather than the entire unit.

Now, that said, it is possible that the IG might have an Elite unit that ignores this philosophy (to an extent). An elite recon platoon equipped with jump packs might be a feasible concept. In relation to the RPG, I would expect that would need to be something gained once the PCs gained quite a bit of experience, however.



#12 Braddoc

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:18 AM

Yeah; maybe Segmentum command made a highly trained special mission force, created to fight a ruthless Rebellious organisation.

Comename: I.G. Jok (Real Imperium Hero)

 



#13 venkelos

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 03:36 PM

borithan said:

That is a picture from 1st edition (where they could indeed have jump-pack troops). However, Warhammer 40k has changed quite a bit from then, and it doesn't really fit with the current portrayal of the guard.

Of course the OP can do whatever he wants with his campaign. I personally wouldn't as it doesn't fit with the image of the Guard I personally hold to (Red Army IN SPAACEE! with some slight variation).

I wouldn't ignore bikes for a "hit and run" unit. Yes, they don't get them rules wise officially, but they are a lot less out of place than jump packs and as someone else has said, I think it has been stated that bike mounted troops could just be treated as Rough Riders. A similar view could be taken for jeep like vehicles (though I am less keen on them, again purely for stylistic reasons).

Basically I would personally just let them have bikes over them getting jump packs.

In much the same way that whole segments of the Imperium are behind the times, or have little contact with the wider galaxy, the thoughts of the past don't need to be always ignored. And "the portrayal of the Guard" is what? They have Rambos, Iraqi Freedom soldiers, crazy Cold War Russians, Mongollian Steppe horse warriors, Britixh Infantry, and MORE, all in the same force. Id say, with the right greased palms, they could have a t least a little bit of anything.

dvang said:

I agree. IG are pretty much equipped with cheap and/or durable items that require relatively little maintenance, or low-level maintenance. This is barring a few 'special' support weapons or items to increase the effectiveness of the unit (like plasma guns, etc). That is why the lasgun is the primary weapon of the IG.  It is cheap to produce, easy to maintain, and can recharge to replace ammunition.  Equipping a whole unit with jetpacks seems counter-intuitive to this philosophy.  I could more likely see a single "forward recon" individual, who has proven himself, be issued a jetpack rather than the entire unit.

Now, that said, it is possible that the IG might have an Elite unit that ignores this philosophy (to an extent). An elite recon platoon equipped with jump packs might be a feasible concept. In relation to the RPG, I would expect that would need to be something gained once the PCs gained quite a bit of experience, however.

I understand their arming mechanic, but as a Player, I suffer from an ingrained desire to feel better than the masses; that's why I'm a PC, and have a destiny, other than to die in a nameless battle, never remembered, and easily replaced by the next meatball to follow. In a game where I expect Psychic Powers to suck, and what Officers they might have might not have Order abilities, and Ogryns might be *******, gear was my big hope. It would take a while, but it's where some of the best growth might be found, so long as it isn't JUST to maybe-Carapace armor.



#14 Warboss Krag

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 04:48 PM

It's been said before here: with over a million worlds to chose from, you're going to find a staggering diversity of cultures, equippage, customs, etc. I think that the Guard units should be allowed damned near ANYTHING that the Imperium has to offer, except Astartes progenoids and so on.

Besides, I still have my Guard army from Space Marine (Epic), and it damned sure has both jump-pack troops and a LOT of bikers! As well as Predator tanks, all the heavy artillery, and two Leviathan command forts for CCC.



#15 Woodclaw

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:11 PM

Based on Imperial Guard fiction (which I know some people don't consider canon) there are a few regiments equipped with cut-down versions of the standard Astartes jump pack - cut down because they troopers were not sturdy enough to withstand the full acceleration and the unit don't have to lift 400 Kg of armored super-soldier.

The most notable of these regiments are the Phantine Air Corps that appeared in "Guns of Tanith" and later in the "Sabbath World Omnibus". Based on the description the Icarus pattern unit they used was no jetpack, but allowed some limited flight, combining a grav-chute system with an internal fan.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Babbist opened the crate and lifted something out for them all to see. It was a compact but heavy metal backpack with a fearsome harness that included thigh loops, and a hinged arm with a moulded handgrip on the left side. The backpack sprouted two blunt, antler-like horns from the shoulders that ended in fist-sized metal balls. It was painted matt-green.

“What we have here, friends and neighbours,” said Babbist, patting the old, worn unit, “is a classic type five infantry jump pack. Accept no imitations. Formal spec, for those that need it, is Type Five Icarus-Pattern Personal Descent Unit with dual M12 gravity nullers and a variable-vent compressor fan for attitude control. Which, I gather, many of you need.”

There were some laughs, but the Ghosts’ attention was fixed on the device.
“Manufactured on Lucius forge world,” Babbist continued, “it’s the standard Guard variant of the assault jump pack. Smaller and lighter, not to mention more compact, than the heavy jobs used by the Adeptus Astartes. The Marines, Emperor bless ’em, need heavier duty babies to hold them in the air. Besides which, we’re not gods. We wouldn’t be able to stand up with one of the Astartes packs yoked to us.”
(Guns of Tanith pg. 150-151)

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#16 borithan

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 04:24 AM

venkelos said:

 

 

In much the same way that whole segments of the Imperium are behind the times, or have little contact with the wider galaxy, the thoughts of the past don't need to be always ignored. And "the portrayal of the Guard" is what? They have Rambos, Iraqi Freedom soldiers, crazy Cold War Russians, Mongollian Steppe horse warriors, Britixh Infantry, and MORE, all in the same force. Id say, with the right greased palms, they could have a t least a little bit of anything.

 

What portrayal of the guard? 2nd edition 40k onwards. There haven't been any Imperial Guard jump troops since 1st edition 40k and Epic 2nd edtion, when the Imperial Guard changed from a punk sci-fi army (jet packs and all) to their portrayal as the unyielding mass of the Imperium, the fairly inflexible hammer of the emperor (though the general portrayal has changed more recently). Much of the variety has been cosmetic, rather than anything else (though there are extremes, which tend to be extremes to the hilariously outdated, rather than "supa-elite sci fi", such as the formed ranks of the Mordian Iron Guard).

 

Iraqi Freedom soldiers? Who are you referencing there? I can see Catachans, Valhallans (though I think they are alluding more to WW2 Russians than Cold War ones), Atillans and Praetorians. Do you mean the Tallarn? If so they really are much more inspired by a combination of Lawrence of Arabia and the WW2 LRDG (though the latter is hard to tell from the models and is mostly evident in their background).

 



#17 venkelos

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 07:51 AM

borithan said:

What portrayal of the guard? 2nd edition 40k onwards. There haven't been any Imperial Guard jump troops since 1st edition 40k and Epic 2nd edtion, when the Imperial Guard changed from a punk sci-fi army (jet packs and all) to their portrayal as the unyielding mass of the Imperium, the fairly inflexible hammer of the emperor (though the general portrayal has changed more recently). Much of the variety has been cosmetic, rather than anything else (though there are extremes, which tend to be extremes to the hilariously outdated, rather than "supa-elite sci fi", such as the formed ranks of the Mordian Iron Guard).

Sorry, my reference was more along the lines of, depending on what Guards you play, or like, they could be radically different, ergo to me, there isn't quite the easy baseline for your average Guardsman. Yes, you could pick the Cadians, and I probably would, too, but they've got so many different flavors, different groups at different tech levels, that if a planet were found tomorrow, and returned into the Imperium after a millennium alone, and if their troops happened to have access to a cache of old jetpacks, and had happened to train in their use, it wouldn't be any weirder than lasguns, or Mongols with horses, or the Skitarii of the AdMech. There haven't been said Guards in the TT line, because Games Workshop doesn't like to crank out a million more different models, as it costs them money, and then we'd have to pay money, too. With there only being a million or so SMs in the galaxy, I think sometimes the IG have to be a bit more flexible, and have many more varied types of responses, as they are all they've got to fight the new alien, mutant, or heretic of the week. Saying they don't have jump-pack troops, just because they aren't featured in the minis line (now, you can certainly say that isn't what you intended, but that, books, and the occasional snippets from GW are really all this universe has for stuff, so I'm not sure what else you were referencing, otherwise) is akin to saying there are no female Guardsmen, since they discontinued the 4, or so, that I can remember them having. There's really no good way to know what all the Guard do and don't have; it's a question of what the author tossed in, or what the GM wants them to use against the enemy. Jump packs aren't SO high-tech (I'm gonna hear on this one), and if they can toss out Leman Russ, after Chimera, after Basilisk, a few jump packs shouldn't be too unreasonable.

borithan said:

Iraqi Freedom soldiers? Who are you referencing there? I can see Catachans, Valhallans (though I think they are alluding more to WW2 Russians than Cold War ones), Atillans and Praetorians. Do you mean the Tallarn? If so they really are much more inspired by a combination of Lawrence of Arabia and the WW2 LRDG (though the latter is hard to tell from the models and is mostly evident in their background).

 

Ah, I was referencing our guys in the Middle East, like Iraq, Afghanastan, etc. I always say a vague similarity between them and the Cadian minis.



#18 Angel of Death

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 06:44 PM

Braddoc said:

Yeah; maybe Segmentum command made a highly trained special mission force, created to fight a ruthless Rebellious organisation.

Comename: I.G. Jok (Real Imperium Hero)

 


"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

 


#19 borithan

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 09:17 PM

venkelos said:

 

 

Sorry, my reference was more along the lines of, depending on what Guards you play, or like, they could be radically different, ergo to me, there isn't quite the easy baseline for your average Guardsman. Yes, you could pick the Cadians, and I probably would, too, but they've got so many different flavors, different groups at different tech levels, that if a planet were found tomorrow, and returned into the Imperium after a millennium alone, and if their troops happened to have access to a cache of old jetpacks, and had happened to train in their use, it wouldn't be any weirder than lasguns, or Mongols with horses, or the Skitarii of the AdMech. There haven't been said Guards in the TT line, because Games Workshop doesn't like to crank out a million more different models, as it costs them money, and then we'd have to pay money, too. With there only being a million or so SMs in the galaxy, I think sometimes the IG have to be a bit more flexible, and have many more varied types of responses, as they are all they've got to fight the new alien, mutant, or heretic of the week. Saying they don't have jump-pack troops, just because they aren't featured in the minis line (now, you can certainly say that isn't what you intended, but that, books, and the occasional snippets from GW are really all this universe has for stuff, so I'm not sure what else you were referencing, otherwise) is akin to saying there are no female Guardsmen, since they discontinued the 4, or so, that I can remember them having. There's really no good way to know what all the Guard do and don't have; it's a question of what the author tossed in, or what the GM wants them to use against the enemy. Jump packs aren't SO high-tech (I'm gonna hear on this one), and if they can toss out Leman Russ, after Chimera, after Basilisk, a few jump packs shouldn't be too unreasonable.

Ah, I was referencing our guys in the Middle East, like Iraq, Afghanastan, etc. I always say a vague similarity between them and the Cadian minis.

 

IT isn't just about the miniatures. Yes, your right, there are various things there are not miniatures for the broad range that there are of Guardsmen, and there are many things that don't have models that I don't see as being outside the "feel" of the Guard. Trucks, or something similar, for one. Someone needs to move stuff about, but they don't make the most exciting tabletop unit. Bikes are another. There are also obviously the various visually distinct regiments that never get any miniatures.

 

However, there has generally been a fairly consistent general "feel" to the Guard (though I accept it has been watered down more recently) since the start of 2nd edition. 1st edition Guard were very different (in fact they even changed within 1st edition. They started out as the unwilling conscripts of the Imperium, though reliably xenophobic, and then become the best of the best of the Imperium's human forces). They were a much more punk (I am not sure if this is the best term, but it is the word I feel best encapsulates them) sci-fi army. However, when 2nd edition came along, they had changed, and there was much more emphasis on the… sledgehammer nature of the guard. They were not really a precise tool. They worked through the principle of staunch discipline (or maybe more "grit" in the case of regiments like the Catachans), manpower and lots and lots of firepower. Much of the feel (though I admit there were even variations then, but there was an overall sense) was a more comic book ww2 army than a sci-fi one. Jet packs are just not in keeping with that overall general feel, and personally, that is what the Guard are about to me (it is also why I am not so keen on the explosion of Valkyries that regiments seem to have since the plastic model came out).

In the case of the "mini-jump packs" in Guns of Tanith, I didn't think that much of it, but I could see an exception, as the planet being fought on had very special requirements, being one where many of the battles were essentially airborne (and it was Gaunt's Ghosts… which I don't really think does 40k very well). In my mind, such specialised equipment would be kept entirely for such specialised environments (and regiments), and they just wouldn't see use on a normal battlefield.

Those are essentially my reasons why I wouldn't have a jet-pack regiment as a "hit and run" regiment. I see bikes as being much more appropriate. Truthfully there is already a background description of a "hit and run" regiment. It was one of the Tallarn ones, and what they had instead were stripped down Chimeras and the like (they are also the element of the Tallarn's background which show the LRDG influence). Of course, in their case I do think they were fighting on a desert planet.

Oh, the Cadians. Oh, right. Well, yes they were obviously based on modern armies. Or at least the 2nd edition metal ones are, though with some hints back to the 1st edition Imperial Guard. The current plastics I think are just generic sci-fi soldier.



#20 sway9

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 01:01 AM

How about a regiment of Elysian Drop Troops? In some fluff they have drop pods, so why not jump packs?






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