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#1 .Zephyr.

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 09:45 AM

 Is it really that hard to make per card FAQ?

What i mean i some web page that lists all the cards available, and for every card there is a ruling discussion. Next to discussion there is a list of common misinterpretations, erratas and links to less frequent rules and FAQ entries that are important for the card.

Usually when u have a problem with the card its really tough to find the answer, even with FAQ sometimes its some general rule, sometimes it's in the details, sometimes its not there. Wouldn't it be so much better to use community and croudsourcing in a orginized way to solve such problems?

Setting up a wiki and having a few FFG approved moderators shouldn't be that hard… or working with the site like cardgamedb that is so benefitial to CoC community [really,without sites like this that anable me to look through cards i would probably not play this game at all, and i would definitely not buy that many expansions because i see such nice cards there]

Because right now finding anything is a nightmare…
Its XIX century… why not use technology that helps organize things not only XX like document where u cant find anything…

Like Khopesh [why cant i link to card description like on cardgamedb here?]  + [why cant i even paste text with ctrl + v in post editor??? FFG hates users of the forum or what? really absurd interface decission] Agency Bodyguard

Khopesh says: [i used chrome developer tool to paste text here, how convenient]

That character and attached character each take 1 wound.

Bodyguard:

Disrupt: Exhaust Agency Bodyguard to cancel 1 wound dealt to a unique character.

Does this work or not? How can one check it? It clearly is a Khopesh related question, so i should be able to find it searching for Khopesh, but it is also affected by what "and" means and how cancel works… i dont even know what to look for in the FAQ

BTW: The question above i dont know the answer for, but i still think it would be so great to have per card answers and if FFG works with CoC community it shouldn't be that much of a problem to set up. There are so many experienced players willing to help they just need right tools…

[edit:]ok, ctrl+v was just me disabling pop-ups, my mistake [still wierd, but not bad]



#2 piszcadz

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 08:10 AM

dude… this is a brilliant idea. we NEED this. NEED NEED NEED! check out how magic does it on a card with particular rulings: javascript:void(0);/*1339700940391*/ 

how can we go about setting this up?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#3 Penfold

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 12:07 PM

 Buy about 1 million dollars or euros of product more than you do now. I'm sure at that point FFG will have the money to devote to resources like this. Personally I just do a word search on the pdf of the FAQ and read the rules closely. That answers about 96% of the questions I have.

Now this might sound a little snarky, but I agree that it would be very nice to have something like that, but the amount of man hours it would take for a company as small as FFG or a game as niche as Call of Cthulhu is no doubt prohibitive.

Canceling the wound is different than canceling the effect. You can cancel a wound to a single character and the other character is still wounded, so yes you can "bodyguard" someone and protect them from the khopesh.



#4 .Zephyr.

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:14 AM

 I dont mean complete regularly updated site by FFG only, i mean a site where questions are answered in an organised way - for example this kopesh answer could be pasted under Kopesh so other players can find it.

Also i think all new expansions should have Dominion like entry telling what was that card supposed to do. I played today and we didnt now what

Palpable Unhappiness
Action: Choose a story. All characters committed to that story have their skill lowered to 0.

does. Does change story so that all characters ever commited no matter are they commited befor or after the card is played have sklii 0, ar maybe only characters that ware already commited there when it was played. Or maybe the terget are the characters and no new chars will get skill reduced to 0. And if they all get reduced to zero what happens when they go to another story this pahse. We both had

Jiang Shi

Type: Character Faction: Hastur
Cost: 3 Skill: 3 Icons: (T)(A)
Game Text:
Monster.
Disrupt: Before you resolve a (T) struggle, pay 1 to commit Jiang Shi to that story without exhausting it. If Jiang Shi is already committed to another story, uncommit it.

So it made quite a difference.

If every card had dominon like entry [more detailed discription and some examples of non-trivial interaction] on some web page there would be no problem to enter as much text as designer would like about how the card works. While doing it for all cards already developed would be definetly too much, doing it when releasing new set for 20 card types doesnt sound that hard.

Discussion option with a way to highlighted and search for confirmed responses doesn't sound that hard to do.

Hmm maybe i'll set up a wiki copying discussions from this forum to test this idea…



#5 AUCodeMonkey

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 04:28 AM

With Palpable Unhappiness, when you play the card, any characters currently committed to the story that you choose would have their skill set to 0. Any characters committed after that, well, they have whatever skill they have. With Jiang Shi, if he was committed to the story where PU was played, and then you uncommit him and commit him to a different story, his skill would still be 0. If you moved him to the story that PU was played on from another story, his skill would not be 0. Hope this helps.



#6 Penfold

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 06:01 AM

 Sounds like a great project for an enthusiastic fan. I would be happy to help with rulings, but I do not have the coding chops to do that, nor the time to do every card and how it interacts with every other card.



#7 .Zephyr.

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 07:25 AM

 About palable unhappines. This was one of interpretations i considered. It makes sense, but my question is: why is the fooofwing interpretation wrong:

The card targets a story, giving it static effect: "All characters committed to that story have their skill lowered to 0."?

Why is: "Chose story. Affect all commited characters: lower their skill to 0" the right one and above is not.

As i see it both agree with the cards text. Maybe wording convention or some more detailed konwladge makes my interpretation not good, but i still think rulse should be as clear as possible. And while putting it all on cards is impossible, putting more detailed description on a web page is certainly not.



#8 AUCodeMonkey

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 08:24 AM

Don't think of it so much as a static effect. Think of it as an effect that is being applied to every character that meets its criteria at that moment. Anything played afterwards is not affected.



#9 .Zephyr.

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 01:35 PM

I think crarddbs comments could serve such per card rulings summary quite nice, the CoC site part doesn't seem too active though.

After setting up a simple wiki i realised how many cards there are. And its not enough to get the list of them all, you need them organised in a way its easy to search… i dont think it makes much sense without card data base to begin with, and carddb has quite nice base.

Id really love having all those questions and answers, especially official ones linked to cards in some way… maybe ill just start posting FAQ entries etc under carddb card entries or sth.



#10 .Zephyr.

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 02:34 PM

I started posting FAQ fragments in carddb comments entries of cards in question (and similar i know of). I think using existing good database makes much more sense than setting up a new one, especially as the only way i could fink of doing it would involve extracting carddb data anyway…

I hope this helps new players who use carddb.

Also some ruling questions:

1) Y'Golonac if i use his ability in operations phase (to ready my guys) does it affect their commitment? I guess no, becouse efffects last till the end of phase unless otherwise stated, but it's a bit wierd so i want to make sure he isn't "till the end of turn" or sth, normally cards say "till the end of phase" explicitly.

2) Cards that zero sth, like Palpable Unhappiness etc. Do they zero "for now, but can be increased later" or is it "while effect lasts even if you try to increase it it's still zero" and how it relates to "FAQ (1.11) Multiple Lasting Effects" that says that order does not matter, becouse sum stays the same…

3) Insane characters
Why are they described so badly in FAQ… it should state what char keeps, what is lost, what is not applicable:
 - keeps name (unique)
 - cost 0, skill 0, no icons, no text, no fraction, no keywords, no subtypes
 - [no != 0] no printed cost, no printed skill
is this correct and complete list or am i missing sth?

4) If i stygnian eye a stygnian eyed character what happens to both attachments? Why is Infernal obsessions wording different than this one… just because or are the rules different?

5) Infinite loops ruling.
a) Is there a list of infinite loops? (they sound like nice combo bases, but i havent seen them in my plays)
b) I had some experience with infinity on math classes and the idea of cancelling each other is appaling, srsly it doesnt make sense so much… if u have more then me after cancelling i want to add a few iterations… i cant?… and i can play this other card outside of loop… but if i make it a part of loop i cant… this is beyond stupid… i really think the only reasonable way to deal with infinity is to say both guys have infinity skill/icons/whatever so its a tie
maybe my aproach is becouse i havent seen them in my games and this ruling is fine, but "academic" analyzys makes it seem so bad
was "my proposition"-like ruling considered and failed to work? 

6) Serpent from Yoth - does he trigger his ability when entering discard not from play? The card has no "from play" but idont remember any other card like this and generally you cant unless allowed by card text… (i think it should explicitly say "from play" or "(can be tiggered if Serpent from Yoth was not in play)" as its too ambigous now)

I really think with that complicated interactions making rules as easy to get as possible and explaining them in as convinient way as possible should be a priority, just after making those interactions fun and challenging to master.



#11 Danigral

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:39 AM

Let me try to answer these:

.Zephyr. said:

1) Y'Golonac if i use his ability in operations phase (to ready my guys) does it affect their commitment? I guess no, becouse efffects last till the end of phase unless otherwise stated, but it's a bit wierd so i want to make sure he isn't "till the end of turn" or sth, normally cards say "till the end of phase" explicitly.

 

2) Cards that zero sth, like Palpable Unhappiness etc. Do they zero "for now, but can be increased later" or is it "while effect lasts even if you try to increase it it's still zero" and how it relates to "FAQ (1.11) Multiple Lasting Effects" that says that order does not matter, becouse sum stays the same…

We know from the FAQ that if it doesn't explicitly say, then the effect lasts until the end of the phase. 

(1.7) Duration of Effects
If a triggered effect has no specified duration, then the effects of that ability expire at the end of the current phase. “Put into play,” “Remove from play,” and “Take Control” effects are all an exceptions to this rule, and unless specified by a specific duration are considered to be permanent effects. With “take control” effects, control of the card in question is granted to the most recent “take control” effect.

 

In the operations phase, characters cannot commit to stories, so the "if able" part would apply.

For Palpable Unhappiness (stupid card name btw; why not Grips of Sorrow, Depths of Despair, or even Palpable Horror? Palpable Unhappiness sounds like a 2nd-grader's poetry), the skill would always be 0 because it is simultaneously applied with any other effects, even if they give additional skill, the effect would be applied to reduce it to 0. I may be wrong about this though, because I could just as easily see a rules lawyer say, "Well, when it's triggered it's reduced by 3 (for example), so the -3 modifier aplies to the net sum with any other modifiers, not the reduce to 0 part."

 

.Zephyr. said:

 

3) Insane characters
Why are they described so badly in FAQ… it should state what char keeps, what is lost, what is not applicable:
 - keeps name (unique)
 - cost 0, skill 0, no icons, no text, no fraction, no keywords, no subtypes
 - [no != 0] no printed cost, no printed skill
is this correct and complete list or am i missing sth?

I think that's right, although the FAQ does not specifically address printed cost or printed skill.

.Zephyr. said:

 

4) If i stygnian eye a stygnian eyed character what happens to both attachments? Why is Infernal obsessions wording different than this one… just because or are the rules different?

1.7 would apply here too. The most recent take control effect would apply.

.Zephyr. said:

 

5) Infinite loops ruling.
a) Is there a list of infinite loops? (they sound like nice combo bases, but i havent seen them in my plays)
b) I had some experience with infinity on math classes and the idea of cancelling each other is appaling, srsly it doesnt make sense so much… if u have more then me after cancelling i want to add a few iterations… i cant?… and i can play this other card outside of loop… but if i make it a part of loop i cant… this is beyond stupid… i really think the only reasonable way to deal with infinity is to say both guys have infinity skill/icons/whatever so its a tie
maybe my aproach is becouse i havent seen them in my games and this ruling is fine, but "academic" analyzys makes it seem so bad
was "my proposition"-like ruling considered and failed to work? 

I have no idea. That would be cool if there were a list. To speak to your point though, the cancellation only applies if they are conflicting effects. You add an icon, I take away an icon, ad infenitum, would just assume that neither takes place. That seems logical to me. Besides in this game, ties aren't always ties.

.Zephyr. said:

 

6) Serpent from Yoth - does he trigger his ability when entering discard not from play? The card has no "from play" but idont remember any other card like this and generally you cant unless allowed by card text… (i think it should explicitly say "from play" or "(can be tiggered if Serpent from Yoth was not in play)" as its too ambigous now)

Nope, this is just enter the discard pile. It could be from play, but it could be from any out of play area too.



#12 .Zephyr.

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:13 PM

AD2

Still wnat to know, i honestly have no idea, all interpretations make some sense and i see no hint in the rules how to interpret it…

AD3

Thats why i want a complete list, becouse i found this wierd and there were some rulings based on insene chars having no printed values (and its not stated anywhere… or i didnt find it)

AD4

Control obviously goes to last take control, my problem is what happens to both support cards

AD6

I searched through the FAQ (once more) and found rules that say that only cards that explictly say so can be tiggered from out of play, so i guess serpent should get errata with from play to look like all other cards or errata other way around.



#13 Asmoridin

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 03:38 PM

Hey man- I saw the start of these comments/FAQ things on Cardgamedb- I love love love the idea.  One of the only positive parts of Magic (for me) was that it was easy to find relevant rulings for each card, even as the size of the FAQ/errata grew tremendous.  They did a good job, and I would love to see this done for all the LCGs.



#14 TheProfessor

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 03:41 PM

.Zephyr. said:

AD3

Thats why i want a complete list, becouse i found this wierd and there were some rulings based on insene chars having no printed values (and its not stated anywhere… or i didnt find it)

From the FAQ, section 2.2 Insanity:

An insane character’s skill, text box, cost, and icons cannot be modified. Although it still counts as a character under your control, it is always treated as having 0 skill, 0 cost, no icons, no subtypes, no text box, and no faction, regardless of any effects in play. Insane characters may be targeted by any effect that targets a character, but any part of the effect that would modify the card’s basic statistics is ignored.



#15 .Zephyr.

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 06:06 AM

 I Know this part (Im currently posting as much FAQ as i can under card entries on cardgamedb) but the problem is cards like:

Catastrophic Explosion

Type: Event Faction: The Agency
Cost: X
Game Text:
Disaster.
Loyal.
Play during your operations phase.
Action: Wound all characters in play with printed skill lower than X.

And now are insane guys dead or not? This text says nothing about printed skill. It also says nothing about name, but i think u cant play more unique when one is insane (or am i wrong?) This entry is not good enough.

Still waiting for 2), especialy with yugoth hastur and scotaphobia it can be really important.

New questions:

7) Ice shaft - why is it polar? all cards mention polar EVENTs… so this subtype doesnt do anything…

8) Mi-Go Observer

Resposne: After a Mi-Go character is destroyed, reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Put any revealed Mi-Go characters into your hand and put the rest of the cards on the bottom of your deck in any order.

Can it respond to ist own death. FAQ says:

Responses on Cards Leaving Play
Some cards respond to leaving play, or
to effects that may cause them to leave
play. Such responses can be triggered
as if the card were still in play. Note
that only Response or Forced Response
effects can be triggered in this manner,
and they must respond to leaving play or
the effect that causes them to leave play.
Cards may not take “one last Action”
before they leave play.

So I think it can, but I want to confirm that.



#16 TheProfessor

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:49 AM

.Zephyr. said:

Catastrophic Explosion
Action: Wound all characters in play with printed skill lower than X.

And now are insane guys dead or not? This text says nothing about printed skill. It also says nothing about name, but i think u cant play more unique when one is insane (or am i wrong?) This entry is not good enough.

The FAQ tells us:

(2.7) Printed

Any reference made to “printed” be it icons, skill, cost, title, subtype etc, only refers to the referenced item physically printed on the card itself. . When a card is in play all references to printed refer only to what is printed on the face up side of the card.

Because an Insane character has nothing printed on the face up side, there is no printed skill.  So the character will not be destroyed because it does not have printed skill less than X.

Interesting point about the name…  Everyone I know plays it that the name stays, but I don't see it written in the rules or FAQ.  Interesting omissions from FFG.  Because it keeps its name, you could not bring in a unique character with the same name.

A general note - any of the rules issues that you don't feel are resolved can/should be forwarded to the Rules Questions link (Damon Stone) at the very bottom of the page.  He is very good at returning rules questions in a timely manner with a clear explanation of how that rule was established.

 



#17 .Zephyr.

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 12:11 PM

 Step 1 - uploading FAQ on cardgamedb comments complete. Took me much less time than expected. As i thought - with right tools its not really a problem, setting up from zero would be harder.

Now time for step 2 - browsing through card list and submittnig clarifications of stuff im not sure of.

Hmm i guess ill start using this link, thx.



#18 jhaelen

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 12:01 AM

.Zephyr. said:

2) Cards that zero sth, like Palpable Unhappiness etc. Do they zero "for now, but can be increased later" or is it "while effect lasts even if you try to increase it it's still zero" and how it relates to "FAQ (1.11) Multiple Lasting Effects" that says that order does not matter, becouse sum stays the same…

 

6) Serpent from Yoth - does he trigger his ability when entering discard not from play? The card has no "from play" but idont remember any other card like this and generally you cant unless allowed by card text… (i think it should explicitly say "from play" or "(can be tiggered if Serpent from Yoth was not in play)" as its too ambigous now)

 

Regarding 2) it's the former, i.e. the skill can be increased again by cards played later.

 

Regarding 6) there was an old discussion here. I seem to recall the consensus was that it only works if the Serpent was in play. I'd suggest forwarding the question to Damon, though. It's the only way to be completely sure!






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