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A Little Help With a Big Gun?


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#1 venkelos

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 01:10 PM

So, as I have looked through the IG Codex, all this time, for stuff to go with my fan-fiction of the 1st Lokarin, I found something I liked, even if I might not always want it in a Table Top game; the Leman Russ Punisher. Now, I don't really want the tank write-up; I did one for the Leman Russ BT, and could modify it, if I wanted. What I need is help wit the Punisher Gatling Cannon. in many ways, this gun seems very good to use against Orks; pure RoF, coupled with enough Strength to actually hurt the Greenskins, with the bit better BS IG field, means that they could really ping the enemy. So, the 1st Lokarin don't have too many tanks, in the grand scheme of things, and make up for it by placing turret-mounting carriages, sort of like what our Howitzers sit on, behind their walls. When the enemy that survives the other gun fire, and the artillery fire, reaches the outer defenses, these guns open up, obliterating the remnants of the Orks, mowing them down in droves.

So, some people here have formulated rules to convert Codex weapons into RPG stat weapons, and I was wondering if someone might try that, here? I prefer RT/DW format, but doing BC, also, wouldn't hurt. How much ammo might be able to sit there, being fed in would be nice, too. A lead to where those rules now, maybe, too. Thanks for any help.

Punisher Gatling Cannon: R24"; S5; AP--; Heavy 20



#2 segara82

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 10:53 PM

Hmm .. Comparing it to the other profiles in 40k TT and their counterparts in the IH i'd go with

90m  -/-/20  2d10 I    Pen 2   Clip --   Rld 2 Full   Storm

The Storm Quality to better represent the tight hail of bullets. But if that makes it too strong leave it out.


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#3 borithan

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 12:47 AM

RT/DW format as compared to Black Crusade? What does that mean? Don't they all use the same layout?

I would maybe boost the damage over 2d10. Something like 2d10+2 or maybe 5.



#4 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 01:16 AM

segara82 said:

Hmm .. Comparing it to the other profiles in 40k TT and their counterparts in the IH i'd go with

90m  -/-/20  2d10 I    Pen 2   Clip --   Rld 2 Full   Storm

The Storm Quality to better represent the tight hail of bullets. But if that makes it too strong leave it out.

Personally, I'd go with 1d10+12 I, Pen 0, Storm  - only rolling one die for damage increases the minimum damage per hit and means you can roll for damage for all the hits at once (a time-saver when you're scoring lots of hits). I'd also assume a clip of 2000, and a Reload value of 10+ full actions (it's a vehicle weapon with a huge ammo feed), but those are more personal stylistic preferences.

Full Auto 20 basically wastes shots, it should be noted. Beyond -/-/13 and an exceptionally skilled marksman in perfect conditions (BS70+, +60 from circumstances), shots will be wasted because nobody can score sufficient degrees of success. With an assumed BS40 gunner, at short range with full-auto and a half action aim (50% chance to hit), you'll only score 5 DoS maximum, which equates to 10 hits with Storm. If that's a deliberate choice, that's one thing… but it's something to consider if it wasn't a deliberate matter.

I might also (or instead) be inclined to add a special rule:

"Torrent of Fire: Sustained fire from the weapon is horrific to behold, and few things can stand firm before such an onslaught. Instead of making a normal Full-Auto attack with the weapon, you nominate a single point within range - this is the centre of the Torrent of Fire. Make the Ballistic Skill Test as normal, with a -20 penalty instead of the normal -10 for Full Auto. Any creature within a number of metres equal to the Degrees of Success on the Ballistic Skill Test of the centre of the Torrent of Fire is hit a number of times equal to the firer's Ballistic Skill Bonus, and may attempt to Dodge as normal. In addition, when attempting a Suppressive Fire action with this weapon, it imposes an additional -20 penalty on Pinning Tests."


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.

#5 venkelos

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 06:35 AM

borithan said:

RT/DW format as compared to Black Crusade? What does that mean? Don't they all use the same layout?

I would maybe boost the damage over 2d10. Something like 2d10+2 or maybe 5.

Not quite. Black Crusade liked to tone back the dice rolled, in favor of keeping it simpler with more use of Proven (X). For example, a RT heavy bolter is 10 shots, 2d10+2 X, Storm, Tearing, while the BC version is 6 shots, 1d10+8 E, Tearing. Lascannons lose a whole die of damage from their DW variant, and gain Proven (3), and while one might say "yeah, but the DW one is an Astartes Lascannon", so is the Chaos Marine's lascannon, but BC decided to step back from "every Space Marine weapon is inherently better" principle.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

segara82 said:

 

Hmm .. Comparing it to the other profiles in 40k TT and their counterparts in the IH i'd go with

90m  -/-/20  2d10 I    Pen 2   Clip --   Rld 2 Full   Storm

The Storm Quality to better represent the tight hail of bullets. But if that makes it too strong leave it out.

 

 

Personally, I'd go with 1d10+12 I, Pen 0, Storm  - only rolling one die for damage increases the minimum damage per hit and means you can roll for damage for all the hits at once (a time-saver when you're scoring lots of hits). I'd also assume a clip of 2000, and a Reload value of 10+ full actions (it's a vehicle weapon with a huge ammo feed), but those are more personal stylistic preferences.

Full Auto 20 basically wastes shots, it should be noted. Beyond -/-/13 and an exceptionally skilled marksman in perfect conditions (BS70+, +60 from circumstances), shots will be wasted because nobody can score sufficient degrees of success. With an assumed BS40 gunner, at short range with full-auto and a half action aim (50% chance to hit), you'll only score 5 DoS maximum, which equates to 10 hits with Storm. If that's a deliberate choice, that's one thing… but it's something to consider if it wasn't a deliberate matter.

I might also (or instead) be inclined to add a special rule:

"Torrent of Fire: Sustained fire from the weapon is horrific to behold, and few things can stand firm before such an onslaught. Instead of making a normal Full-Auto attack with the weapon, you nominate a single point within range - this is the centre of the Torrent of Fire. Make the Ballistic Skill Test as normal, with a -20 penalty instead of the normal -10 for Full Auto. Any creature within a number of metres equal to the Degrees of Success on the Ballistic Skill Test of the centre of the Torrent of Fire is hit a number of times equal to the firer's Ballistic Skill Bonus, and may attempt to Dodge as normal. In addition, when attempting a Suppressive Fire action with this weapon, it imposes an additional -20 penalty on Pinning Tests."

As a deliberate choice, I'll say I was deliberately trying to emulate the TT weapon, but that game doesn't penalize for multiple shots; certainly, the BS 3 IG are likely to miss with a few, but with 20 shots, that's okay. Killing Orks is about pouring as many bullets into their mobs as possible. If that isn't likely to work here, I'll have to give it some thought. Other stuff has changed the RoF of the same weapon (usually lascannons and heavy bolters), so I probably could here, too. Assuming 4 degrees of success on average, taking into account BS 40, full auto burst +20, full aim +20, auto-brace from the heavy carriage, perhaps a RoF of 10, 20 with Storm, will work better. semi and Full Auto get bonuses to hit, not penalties, at the expense of ammo.



#6 Nathiel

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 12:16 PM

All I've seen so far is the sample characters but it looks like BC rules by the mention of standard attack getting +10.  This would mean BC rules for semi/full auto. in BC Standard Attack is +10, Semi Auto is +0, Full Auto is -10 to hit.



#7 borithan

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 01:37 AM

venkelos said:

borithan said:

 

RT/DW format as compared to Black Crusade? What does that mean? Don't they all use the same layout?

I would maybe boost the damage over 2d10. Something like 2d10+2 or maybe 5.

 

 

Not quite. Black Crusade liked to tone back the dice rolled, in favor of keeping it simpler with more use of Proven (X). For example, a RT heavy bolter is 10 shots, 2d10+2 X, Storm, Tearing, while the BC version is 6 shots, 1d10+8 E, Tearing. Lascannons lose a whole die of damage from their DW variant, and gain Proven (3), and while one might say "yeah, but the DW one is an Astartes Lascannon", so is the Chaos Marine's lascannon, but BC decided to step back from "every Space Marine weapon is inherently better" principle.

I wouldn't personally lump RT into that. I don't personally feel Deathwatch is compatible with RT almost precisely because of the damage levels of weapons in Deathwatch, which seem to be on a scale above the rest of the series (at least pre-errata). Ok, it is a different format from Black Crusade, but I would personally split it into DH/RT, Deathwatch pre-errata, and DW post errata/Black Crusade.

Basically you mean Black Crusade/Deathwatch Errata format?

Trying to remember what the Tau rifles were in the errata again… it was either 2d10+2 or 1d10+12. Which ever it was I would be aiming for about that level.



#8 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:56 AM

"I might also (or instead) be inclined to add a special rule:"

 

The Vulcan Mega-Bolter's Area Saturation rule from Rites Of Battle (albeit with a less powerful round) might work. That's representing a heavy 15 weapon, after all.

One attack against each target in a 20m x 20m area.

 

Full Auto 20 is fine - the fact you can't hit with a full burst is true - you will, must be wasting rounds with a weapon like that.



#9 MKX

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 12:50 PM

Instead of Storm, you could go with Devastating (X) to represent just how well it clears away hordes. At the moment I'm also of the opinion that 'less' damage dice and a higher baseline damage seem to also be easier to live with for a number of reasons.



#10 Kasatka

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:46 AM

 I cannot find the original post that this is from, so i am afraid i cannot give credit to the creator, but i found a handy dandy vehicle weapon datasheet a year or so ago. The punisher as listed on there is 

Mounted _ 110m _ -/-/10 _ 2d10+10 _ Impact _ Pen 0 _ 2000 rounds _ 12Full reload _ Storm, Tearing

This makes it very short range as far as vehicle weapons go, but is great at saturating an area with infantry slaying rounds. It can also do okay against lightly armoured vehicles as it should, with 3 dice drop lowest for damage and a bonus of 10, it can penetrate civilian vehicles and structures and light military armour with ease.

The 2000 round ammo capacity i think makes sense as it still gives it 100 combat rounds of non-stop firing and then 12 rounds of reloading, assuming there is a spare magazine laying around (unlikely unless you have support vehicles and sentinel lifters to reload it), but even then it means it'll spend a little over 10.7% of the time reloading and quite vulnerable.


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

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#11 venkelos

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 09:52 PM

Kasatka said:

 I cannot find the original post that this is from, so i am afraid i cannot give credit to the creator, but i found a handy dandy vehicle weapon datasheet a year or so ago. The punisher as listed on there is 

Mounted _ 110m _ -/-/10 _ 2d10+10 _ Impact _ Pen 0 _ 2000 rounds _ 12Full reload _ Storm, Tearing

This makes it very short range as far as vehicle weapons go, but is great at saturating an area with infantry slaying rounds. It can also do okay against lightly armoured vehicles as it should, with 3 dice drop lowest for damage and a bonus of 10, it can penetrate civilian vehicles and structures and light military armour with ease.

The 2000 round ammo capacity i think makes sense as it still gives it 100 combat rounds of non-stop firing and then 12 rounds of reloading, assuming there is a spare magazine laying around (unlikely unless you have support vehicles and sentinel lifters to reload it), but even then it means it'll spend a little over 10.7% of the time reloading and quite vulnerable.

That's pretty nice, I think I'll go with it. I might give it Devastating (x), just for some extra oomph! against Hordes, the Ork's preferred method of greeting. Thank you very much.



#12 Kasatka

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 11:12 PM

 No problem, i'll try and find where i got it from and get it hosted for people to browse, as it has all of the leman russ variants and artillery options on it.


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

Only those that prosper may truly judge what is sane.


#13 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 08:50 AM

Kasatka said:

 

 No problem, i'll try and find where i got it from and get it hosted for people to browse, as it has all of the leman russ variants and artillery options on it.

 

 

It's one of mine, and can be found here. I'll have a look for the post that accompanied it shortly.

It should be noted that these rules were written for Rogue Trader in mind first and foremost, and thus don't include potentially-appropriate weapon qualities (such as Concussive or Devastating) which do not appear in the Rogue Trader Core Rulebook.


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.

#14 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 09:43 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

It's one of mine, and can be found here. I'll have a look for the post that accompanied it shortly.

It should be noted that these rules were written for Rogue Trader in mind first and foremost, and thus don't include potentially-appropriate weapon qualities (such as Concussive or Devastating) which do not appear in the Rogue Trader Core Rulebook.

To follow up: the original post can be found here.


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.

#15 Kasatka

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:04 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Kasatka said:

 

 No problem, i'll try and find where i got it from and get it hosted for people to browse, as it has all of the leman russ variants and artillery options on it.

 

 

It's one of mine, and can be found here. I'll have a look for the post that accompanied it shortly.

It should be noted that these rules were written for Rogue Trader in mind first and foremost, and thus don't include potentially-appropriate weapon qualities (such as Concussive or Devastating) which do not appear in the Rogue Trader Core Rulebook.

I should have guessed it was you! You tend to post the most comprehensive and well thought out house rules - still waiting on you to add more to your Forbidden Lore supplement  


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

Only those that prosper may truly judge what is sane.





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