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#1 MrPink

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 06:05 PM

Does anyone have a link to any good Un-official Team expansions?

I'm dieing to design a Goblin team… i'm lacking photoshop or any other decent software so it's hard to do so myself, but if there are people interested, i'll share my ideas, and we can possibly produce some basic rules and players/star players to add…

 

Is there much interest for un-official team expansions?



#2 MrPink

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:11 PM

Just to start off some interest, i drew this up today as a starting point for a Goblins team… I don't have ANY idea how balanced they'll be (i suspect not very, but not in their favour).  I think they'd be the kind of team you'd consider playing in a 3-4 player game, but not a 2 player game :S

But hey, Goblins are for fun, not winning…. Anyway, would love to get some thought on the following idea for a team, and their team upgrades - i wouldn't bother with Star Players, since then you'd have to sleeve up the entire deck, instead of just these cards… Plus, there's already a star Player Troll, and Goblin (One Eye).  The team revolves around Cheats(obviously) and relies upon good cheat tokens to win match ups, as well as utilizing the Trolls and Secret Weapon players to maximum effect.  However, winning is almost always down to luck (and i think that's how it should be).  They have some real high Star Power players with 2 Trolls, and the Fanatic, however, everyone else is weak, except the Looney, and Bombardier who obviously use their weapons instead of regular tackles - although they aren't exactly consistent…

Team Goblins
Troll x 2
SP – 4 Downed – 2
Action: Tackle
Really Stupid – Response If no other players in this match up, roll one dice, if it’s now a *Tackle* symbol, you cannot complete your actions.
Throw Team-Mate – Response When Troll comes into play, you may down a Goblin at this highlight in order gain a *Tackle*. You may only do this once.
Bombardier
SP – 1 Downed – 0
Action: Cheat, Tackle
Stunty – Response: When Bombardier is downed, roll a dice, if you roll anything other than a Tackle symbol send Bombardier to the discard pile as an injured player.
Dodge – Response: You may force your opponent to re-roll their tackle dice once, if they target this Goblin.
Throw da Bom! – Response: When Bombardier Tackles a player, you may choose to instead roll a single die and apply the following result to that player: Tackle - Downed. Blank - Target Missed, Nothing Happens. Cross - Bombardier is Injured.
Looney
SP – 1 Downed – 0
Action: Cheat, Tackle
Stunty – Response: When Looney is downed, roll a dice, if you roll anything other than a Tackle symbol send Looney to the discard pile as an injured player.
Chainsaw! – Response: When Looney Tackles a player, instead roll a single die and apply the following result to that player: Tackle : The target is Injured immediately. Blank: Nothing Happens. Cross: Looney is Injured immediately.
Pogoer
SP – 1 Downed – 0
Action: Cheat, Tackle, Pass
Stunty – Response: When Pogoer is downed, roll a dice, if you roll a Tackle symbol send Pogoer to the discard pile as an injured player.
Dodge – Response: You may force your opponent to re-roll their tackle dice once, if they target this Goblin.
Dirty Player – Response: When Pogoer Injures a player, place a cheat token on Pogoer.
Fanatic
SP – 5 Downed – 0
Action: Cheat, Tackle, Tackle, Tackle
Ball & Chain – Response: When Fanatic is downed he is immediately injured.
Round an’ Round we go! – Response: When the Fanatic declares a Tackle attempt Roll a die, if you roll a Tackle symbol, continue with the Tackle. If you roll any other Symbol he misses his target.

Goblin x 6
SP – 1 Downed – 0
Action: Cheat
Stunty – Response: When this Goblin is downed, roll a dice, if you roll a Tackle symbol send Goblin to the discard pile as an injured player.
Dodge – Response: You may force your opponent to re-roll their tackle dice once, if they target this Goblin.

Team Upgrades
Referee Bribes
Response Scoreboard Phase: For each referee ejection symbol revealed, flip a coin. If heads is shown, ignore it. If tails, the player is ejected.
Secret Weapons
Response Maintenance Phase: You may place one of the following players from your discard pile on top of your deck prior to drawing your hand: Looney, Pogoer, Bombadier, Fanatic.
Dirty Player
Response: Once per turn you may give one of your Goblins *Tackle*. They may only Tackle a player that is downed, but gain +1 SP for each other Team Member in this Highlight.
Everyone Loves a Cheat
Gain 2 *Fans* every time you Injure an opponent’s player.
What’s da Ball for neway?
Gain 2 *Fans* every time you win a Highlight, where the opponent controls the Ball.
 

Would love some feed back in regards to this, and any suggestions… Might even get FFG interested if we're lucky :P
The other teams i'm most interested in are Vampires, Norse, Halflings (thought i'm at a loss to work them out), Dark Elves.  I find the unusual teams more interesting then some of the others, but there are some teams that would fit into the card  game better then others, and i fear i'm starting out with the harder ones…  However, some encouragement and thoughts would be much appreciated :)



#3 myrm

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:38 AM

Golbins nutters and illegal weapons fit better as star players in the deck (I think there may be one in there already). The starting hand is supposed to be the very basic types - so maybe restrict what sort of crazies and secret weapons you allow up front.

For the upgrades I'd change things to stick within existing mechanisms

The Ref Bribes you are adding another component to the game (yes I know its only a coin, but still). Change it to - for each ejection drawn, draw another token, if the token shows Star player points the ejection is cancelled and the blind eye means the player gets the opportuniy to shine (keeps the star player points), if the token shows Fans then the player is still ejected but gains a reputation and following, if the token shows another ejection market then the player is ejected and a second player at that matchup must be removed as well.

For secret weapons, I'd make it something that activates Sprint actions - e.g. 'All linemen gain the Sprint skill', or a tappable Triple Sprint, or something similar. Cycling in the special players.

I'd make Dirty PLayer give a player both a Cheat and a Tackle Action immediately.

2 Fans per injury seems quite high given that the Ogres will be able to do it fairly easily and as you add secret weapons they get fairly potent.



#4 MrPink

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 04:14 PM

thanks for the suggestions. 
Keep in mind, i'm not wanting to add any Star Players at this point, as that requires sleeving up the entire star player deck, and i can't be bothered.  Which means Secret Weapon players have to remain in the deck in order to use them…
I agree, that all otehr races have very basic standard guys, however, The Goblin Team has 6 Starting Vanila Goblins, and the secret weapon Goblins are anything but reliable… I was trying to play into the fact that the team RELIES on their Secret Weapon players and Trolls (much like in the actual game) and cheating to have any chance. I feel that the balancing act comes in where you can't make their potential be TOO good, however, if you're unlucky with the Fanatic or Looney, you really aren't getting anything, and they are you're most effective tacklers, yet 50% of the time  the looney misses, and the Fanatic should only hit 1.5 times.

I do like your ideas about the Upgrades, although i feel given the absolute reliance on Special Weapons that Goblins have, i do prefer my iteration, on that you guarantee a Special Weapon, as opposed to a Troll or something else possibly…

I'll make some changes today and update.



#5 myrm

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 08:39 PM

If you have a triple sprint in the mix then you should be able to guarantee a secret weapon in a team mix. Another option is that it gives all linemen the sprint skill, so cycling the deck rapidly. As a dedicated skaven player you don't need that many sprinting cards in the deck to cycle it well enough.

I understand not wanting to introduce Star player cards but then you have to get the balance right - there are goblins in the decks from memory - Im trying hard to remember if they include secret weapon players or not. The idea of pushing them into star players also allows for a decent number of linemen, which you need with the trolls - Im also thinking ahead a little to compare the team with how to do a halfing.

Looking again - I would alter the Troll ability, rather than down a goblin for a tackle (which the troll already has) I'd be tempted to consider looking at some passing/ball movement skill.



#6 Hannibal_pjv

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:08 AM

Too much sprint means weak Goblina are not going be in the playin field… ever… They just got cycled to the discard pile every time!
Theam upgrades can give some seacret weapons and allso fans when using those "weapons" It would balance somewhat weak players!

 



#7 MrPink

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 02:17 PM

Hannibal_pjv said:

Too much sprint means weak Goblina are not going be in the playin field… ever… They just got cycled to the discard pile every time!
Theam upgrades can give some secret weapons and allso fans when using those "weapons" It would balance somewhat weak players!

 

 

This is why i didn't want to use the Sprint ability much… that and the fact that thematically, the Goblin team is NOT fast.  Also, i liked the extra tackle ability on the Troll because that's pretty much the only Tackler on the team, and you down(and potentially injure) a Goblin as well.

I was thikning to avoid the passing game, because, again, Goblins tend not to play the ball, so to stick with the theme of the card game(being a highlight) there wouldn't be too many highlights of the Goblins playing a passing game.

 

I'm REALLY liking the idea of Secret Weapons being Team Upgrades… however, until you get those upgrades you're looking at a seriously weak team… I'd leave the pogoer in the deck, since he's not considered a Secret Weapon.  But the Bombardier and Looney i think that's a great idea.  I do however think that Every Goblin team plays with a Fanatic all the time.  But i'm also torn, because teh thing with Secret Weapon players, is that they are part of the roster, and one of the MAIN draws of playing Goblins.  Halflings play quite differently, beingable to rely upon their treemen, and being FAR more capable of being thrown, and of course they get Halfling Chef (i don't know HOW to add Halflings, and keep them interesting - with only two player types….)

 

For future teams, i feel like teams like Vampires and Halflings just won't be that much fun, if there's only two player types you can use(Vamps MAYBE you can add the Count).

 

Anyway, what i came up with last week(haven't got a chance to test yet, but will be playing a 4 player game in 2 weeks and will try it then) is the following.

Blood Bowl Team Manager - Goblins
Troll x 2
SP – 4 Downed – 2
Action: Tackle
Really Stupid – Response If no other players in this match up, roll one dice, if it’s a *Tackle* symbol, you cannot complete your actions.
Throw Team-Mate – Response When Troll comes into play, you may down a Goblin at this highlight in order gain a *Tackle*. You may only do this once.
Bombardier
SP – 1 Downed – 0
Action: Cheat, Tackle
Stunty – Response: When Bombardier is downed, roll a dice, if you roll anything other than a *Tackle* symbol send Bombardier to the discard pile as an injured player.
Dodge – Response: You may force your opponent to re-roll their tackle dice once, if they target Bombardier.
Throw da Bom! – Response: When Bombardier Tackles a player, you may roll a single die and apply the following result to that player: Tackle : Downed. Blank: Nothing Happens. Cross: Bombardier is Downed.
Looney
SP – 1 Downed – 0
Action: Cheat, Tackle
Stunty – Response: When Looney is downed, roll a dice, if you roll anything other than a *Tackle* symbol send Looney to the discard pile as an injured player.
Chaynsaw! – Response: When Looney Tackles a player, instead roll a single die and apply the following result to that player: Tackle : The target is Injured. Blank: Nothing Happens. Cross: Looney is Injured.
Pogoer
SP – 1 Downed – 0
Action: Tackle, Cheat, Sprint
Stunty – Response: When Pogoer is downed, roll a dice, if you roll a *Tackle* symbol send Pogoer to the discard pile as an injured player.
Dodge – Response: You may force your opponent to re-roll their tackle dice once, if they target Pogoer.
Dirty Player – Response: When Pogoer Injures a player, place a *Cheat* token on Pogoer.
Fanatic
SP – 5 Downed – 0
Action: Cheat, Tackle, Tackle, Tackle
Ball & Chain – Response: When Fanatic is downed he is immediately injured.
Round an’ Round we go! – Response: When the Fanatic declares a Tackle attempt Roll a die, if you roll a *Tackle* symbol, continue with the Tackle. If you roll any other Symbol he misses his target.
Goblin x 6
SP – 1 Downed – 0
Action: Cheat
Stunty – Response: When this Goblin is downed, roll a dice, if you roll a *Tackle* symbol send Goblin to the discard pile as an injured player.
Dodge – Response: You may force your opponent to re-roll their tackle dice once, if they target this Goblin.

Team Upgrades
Bribe
Response Scoreboard Phase: If you reveal a referee ejection symbol, you may exhaust Bribe to replace it with another Cheat token.
Secret Weapons
Response Maintenance Phase: You may place one of the following players from your discard pile on top of your deck prior to drawing your hand: Looney, Bombardier, Fanatic.
Dirty Player
Response Matchup Phase: Exhaust Dirty Player to give one of your players: Tackle and Cheat.
Everyone Loves a Cheat
Gain 1 Fan every time you Injure an opponent’s player.
What’s da Ball for neway?
Gain 2 Fans every time you win a Highlight, where the opponent controls the Ball.
 



#8 phelanward

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:25 AM

As a fairly serious Blood Bowl player, a huge fan of BBTM, a someone with some experience in professional game development and testing, I have to say that I think you pretty much nailed this one. Kudos!  The Trolls, Chainsaws, and Tam Upgrades are downright perfect, and I think you've gotten a good stunty/dodge adaptation thing going.  I think it would really change how people play, since most Tackle actions against this team will only cost 1 Star power per highlight.

A couple things--

You use the term "Dirty Player twice", once as a Team Upgrade, and once as a skill. I would remove it from the Pogoer.

The team has precious little access to the ball. As you probably know, the Pogoer is the de facto ball carrier for most goblin teams. He's the one I'd be temped to change him the most. Maybe just give him dodge, stunty, and 2 Passing Icons. Since there's only one in the deck, it's like the 'secret ball-stealing weapon.'   This might make the team a bit more dynamic. As per the goblin team in BB, here they should be wily and unpredictable. If all the secret weapons and TMM are just adapted into more BASH, I think you're missing an opportunity. 

I like your Really Stupid a lot, and I wouldn't change it, but I might consider adding a Cheat skill to the troll. I understand that this means almost every player now how the Cheat skill; (as I suggested, you might want to take it off the Pogoer, especially since that's no longer considered a Secret Weapon.) One thing I don't think I lot of BBTM players realize is why the Big Guys get Cheat tokens-- it's not that they "cheat" in the manner of Chaos, it's meant to simulate their unreliability. ("Blitz with a Krox? Are you CRAZY??")  One potential problem I see is that the Troll is going to wind up with the ball as often as possible, because he's the only one that can hold onto it reliably. Adding a cheat makes this a little less desirable.

Lastly, I might suggest adding something to simulate the positive aspects of being a stunty-- getting past opposing players. How about replacing your last team upgrade (What's da Ball for neway-- feels more like a dwarf/chaos/khemri thing) with one of these--

Between Da Legs! ––  If the ball is at midfield, you may treat all Tackle actions as Passing actions on your players with Stunty.

Right Stuff –– When using a Tackle action on a player of 4 or more Star Power, you may forgo the Tackle and instead immediately take the Ball and give it to one of your players with Stunty.

 

Lastly, your Bombardier bugs me a little because it seems too much like a weak Chainsaw. I think that Bombs should be a little less predictable, and also feel very different  from regular tackling/injuring. These two ideas came to me. The first is more mechanically different, the second draws more from BB flavour.

Delayed Charge-- When you play Bombardier, draw 3 cheating tokens and add one to an opposing player.

Don't Catch It! – In any order you choose, roll a die for each opposing player present, then Bombardier. The first player to roll a [X] is immediately injured. If no [X] is rolled, repeat in the same order until a player rolls a [X].

Of course, it's your design, so the choices are yours. But I really like it! Nice work!



#9 MrPink

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 06:39 PM

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone.

phelanward, i REALLY like where you're coming from.  I took a lot of what you said under my wing, and implemented it.  I've removed Dirty Player from Pogoer and made him Pass, Pass. I like that idea thematically as well.
I agree with your thoughts on adding Cheat to the Trolls, to add a bit of unreliability (sometimes SP 5 or 6, sometimes ejected, or nothing) - getting "ejected" works thematically with me as well in terms of the TT rule for "Really Stupid".  He doesn't get ejected per say, but he just stands around doing nothing.  However, i'm not sure how the Trolls end up with the ball? They have no natural or team upgrade that gives them pass?

I also liked your idea for the Team Upgrade "between da legs" and ran with it, although i've slightly changed it.  I don't think it's too good, since Goblins suck something awful, and it's only available if you have a Goblin in hand and the ball at Midfield(i'll post it below).

I liked where you went with the Bombardier… he too bugged me as not great, and I wasn't sure how represent his unpredictability, while still making him either really cool, or really crap.  So i removed his bomb throwing ability and gave him 3 Cheat tokens. While he may not have a "Bomb" throw anymore, i feel this represents him better in this game.  Sometimes he'll be 3 or 4 SP, other times, ejected.  I wasn't too keen on giving other players cheat tokens, since more often then not it's beneficial rather then detramental… However, having too many of them turns the odds a little bit.

I've made up some mock cards for all of these which i'd love to post. If someone has a good site i can use to upload them easily it'd be appreciated. 

For those that are interested, i'll be play testing this tomorrow in a few 4 player games.  The goals i've had with this team are as follows:
-This team has to be FUN.  Goblins are not played purely to win, but to be thematic and have fun.
-They have to rely on a little bit of luck(or a lot) to win - dice rolls and cheat tokens increase this factor.
-The should be fun to play against, not frustrating - cheat tokens add unpredictability and can make or break a highlight win.  Anything with power needs a drawback.  Having 6 goblins(more "linemen" then any other teams) limits the power of teh Trolls, espeically when the Trolls need Standing Goblins to Shine.

I'll post the results of the session over the weekend.

The changed cards i've listed below.

Troll
SP – 4 Downed – 2
Action: Tackle, Cheat
Really Stupid – Response If no other players in this match up, roll one dice, if it’s now a Tackle symbol, you cannot complete your actions.
Throw Team-Mate – Response When Troll comes into play, you may down a Goblin at this highlight in order gain a Tackle. You may only do this once.

Bombardier
SP – 1 Downed – 0
Action: Cheat, Cheat Cheat
Stunty – Response: When Bombardier is downed, roll a dice, if you roll anything other than a Tackle symbol send Bombardier to the discard pile as an injured player.
Dodge – Response: You may force your opponent to re-roll their tackle dice once, if they target Bombardier.

Pogoer
SP – 1 Downed – 0
Action: Pass, Pass
Stunty – Response: When Pogoer is downed, roll a dice, if you roll a Tackle symbol send Pogoer to the discard pile as an injured player.
Dodge – Response: You may force your opponent to re-roll their tackle dice once, if they target Pogoer.

Team Upgrades
(Removed "What's da ball for neway?")

Between da Legs!
If the ball is at midfield, all players with Stunty, played at that Highlight gain Passing.
 



#10 morty_piper

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 10:18 AM

 Love the idea you've come up with expansions so far. Haven't tried this myself but what has held me back was the limited teams. Maybe we'll get some luck with more of your qwork :)



#11 MrPink

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 07:33 PM

played a 4 player game with Dwarves, Skaven, Wood Elves on the weekend.  The game ended in the closest game i've played.  5 points separated all 4 players.

I ended up in equal second 1 fan behind first(we play Salary Cap rules FYI, and also played Abbreviated Season). I feel like i could've won if i'd played a little more strategically instead of tehmatically (i did also get two Hired Wizards, and an option of a second Apothicary which i passed up for fairness' sake).  Overall it didn't seem SUPER balanced, but i feel part of that was due to the other players not really knowing how to play against the Goblins, being INCREDIBLY lucky with the cheat tokens (i won a highlight with 3 goblins cause i got a +1, +2, and +3 boost), and my two starting star players were Grashnak Blackhoof, and Headsplitter… that gave my starting team 5 guys with 4SP or more. 

Firstly the Team Upgrades:
I only saw Secret Weapon on the final turn, so never got to use it, however i dont' think it would hvae made HEAPS of difference, as the way the game turned out i oftenm didn't have a sectre wepoan in teh discard pile to put on top of my deck - so whether that's balanced or useless, i'm not sure. More testing required here.

Everyone Loves a Cheat - used this a few times, but didn't make a big difference - it plays fine.

Bribe: i didn't get to use, but it's similar to the Skaven team upgrade so i assume it's balanced.

Dirt Player - Was ok, although i feel like a restriction on the tackle - being that you can only tackle downed players(with the intent to injure them) would be better since it combines two staff upgrades in it's current form, i think it's a little good.

Between da Legs! : this felt really over powered, and maybe it should be restricted to ONLY Goblins not all stunty players - however, it didn't really make much of a difference to the highlights… but it just seemed like once you got this, there were too many times where you simply 'got the ball for doing nothing'.  That being said, it's not as good as the staff upgrade that gives you 'Passing', so it still SEEMS ok in theory - more testing needed on this.

Now the players:
Fanatic: he's great, i played him twice, and he hit 2/3 times on both occasions.  He also got knocked down and injured on both occasions… so he seemed ok.  Never seemed too game breaking - i'm tempted to reduce tackles to 2 from 3.

Trolls: These guys were quite balanced i feel.  Didn't get to use Throw team mate very often, but it seemed reasonable(especially since you lose Star Power and a Cheat token at that highlight when doing so - it made the ability quite strategic).  Really Stupid went off once, didn't really affect the game much, but i like it there.

Bombadier: Wow.  I played him once where he got a +0, +2, and +3.  Love the randomness, but he seemed TOO good… But lots of luck there, and i believe it's around a 50% chance to hit an Ejection token, so it seems balanced even if a little luck reliant.

Pogoer seemed fine.

Looney: felt like he could swing the game a little too much.  that 50% to not only down but INJURE a player, and it could be a big guy seemed REALLY good.  Even if he didn't always do it.  Maybe instead of injure, it should be down.  That being said, he only contributes 1SP to the matchup.

Goblins: seemed ok if very unassuming.  I won a number of matchups due to the cheat tokens on Goblins…  and people often didn't tackle them due to dodge, or the assumption that they are crap.  That may change in the future - but i feel the cheat tokens make them really good. Maybe removing them is more balanced.

 

So… that was my experience with them.  In conclusion they were fun, but i feel that playing the Abbreviated Season and scoring some GREAT star players (as well as starting with a Hired Wizard) may have made them more powerful then they in-fact are…  Card images linked
http://i49.tinypic.c.../2w5vrle.jpg   
http://i48.tinypic.com/6sf9mx.jpg

ps. images were made in MSPaint, as i don't have access to Photoshop at the moment…
 






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