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#1 Amaimon

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:29 PM

Greetings fellow Heretics!

I shall share my insights on Black Crusade, after playing for some time with my group. We are now at roughly 14k XP, which means we should be able to kick some ass by now. It's true most of the cases, but here are some things that make the game annoying, and make us to think if Dark Heresy haven't been better. 

1. Infamy and dying

It happened at least one to all of us. Bad luck, and youre dead. You burn infamy, roll 9, and you're back at the begining, having 20 infamy. You can only dream  about buying somthing rare. Which makes no sense, since you made alliances, gathered people, resources. So why now that gods saved you from death, those resources suddenly diminish automagically? 

2. You are angry, because you died, so you dont want that to happen again.

Be better at combat, but which weapon do you use? If you are a SM - no problem, grab a power sword, or better, two power swords, and lightning attack everything in sight. Psyker? No problem. Hellish blast solves most of the problems. If not, use telekinetic storm. Simple Math - PR 5 + Push 5, dmg 1d10+30, WP about 100. Kills greater deamon in two rounds. In one if you are PR10. Warp lock afterwards.] But shooting someone becomes a sirious problem. 

Full auto sucks. If you have 50 BS, and shoot FA, you have only 50% chance of hitting anything. If someone has 50% chancce of dodging, you have only 25% chance of hiting anything. Forget about multiple hits. Accurate? you hit almost every time, but dodging one shot is simple. Flame? Dodge at agility, doesn't even use target reaction + weak damage. There are two conclusions:

a) Two weapon wielder - preferably two plasma pistols. First round - aim, then two single shots + weapon tech to one. Second round - aim + two semi auto shots on maximal. Or plasma + melta. 

b) Reaper autocannon - Add +10 from twin linked to increase the chance of hitting anything, +10 aim, +10 short range. Good damage and pentetration. Still skitary from hand of corruption survives two hits. 

3. Buy your team a set of 4 plasma pistols. Or to yourself, and then sell them to buy some more stuff. No difference between 2 and 4? Why stop at two? Each team member repeats until succesful. 

4. Hey i want a laser sight to my plasma pistol! No can do, better buy yourself another pistol. Why simple scope, that can be attached to anything has the same avalibility as the gun? It has some advantages and disadvantages, but come on. We divided weapon upgrades to attachments and modifications. Attachments, can be dismantled and attached to another gun. Modifications cannot, because they are in buit. Attachments have their own availibilty, while modifications generally follow rules of BC. 

What do you think on those subjects? Or others? We generally came to think that DH was overall better system, because we didn't have to make many modifications, whereas in BC, we constantly find new annoying issues. Sorry for any mistakes, but it's 2:30 am, and I am little drunk, but what the hell :)



#2 Reverend mort

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 01:13 AM

1.

Back to 20!? If you're at 14k xp earned, what the bloody hell have you been doing!? Dying every session? Our group is 14ish games in (7kish xp) and we're all in-between 80-120. The lowest guy, who's died repeatedly and missed a lot of sessions, is still in his 80's. Check that you're doing Infamy right.

As for why, well, because the gods saved you. Infamy is, in large part, respect. Getting you ass handed to you by Imperial Loyalists or Xeno Scum so hard nothing short of divine intervention pulled you ass out of the fire… Does not look good on the resume, and those divine gods whom you champion are probably a bit disappointed that you, you know, FAILED THEM!

2.

Power swords and Lighting attack have the exact same mechanics and issues that full auto does, you realize that right? The only difference is that they can get +10 for best quality but don't get any modifiers for short range. Also, they risk counter attacks from parries, which you can get +30ish too if you have a shield. Haven't seen dodge bonuses get that high.

As for full auto, yeah, you have a 50% of hitting (assuming you haven't put anything in BS raises). Just like melee. And a target with dodge also has a chance to dodge you. Just like melee (only they get to use parry too, so they get the higher of two skills, not one).

However, and this is the important bit: targets only get to dodge what they see coming. So sure, they can leap into cover if you wade into 30+ meters with your sniper rifle and fire off a single shot. They don't get to dodge if you're hidden 750 meters away (At no to-hit penalty if you got marksman), stacking up aiming bonuses from full-round aim actions and then unleashing a single shot into their skull.

If you want a solution to make you hit more. Buy a greater minion. Make it a psyker. Get it warptime. Have it cast it on you, pushed. Enjoy that +8 Unnatural Ballistsic Skill, and those 4 extra hits. Not to mention that wonderful increase in agility.

For the Reaper auto-cannon. Suppressive fire. Friend with flamer. Enjoy the barbeque. As for said flamers being weak. Read the rules for being on fire. Sure, initial damage is relatively weak. The following damage that ignores armor is not. The every round willpower test to get to do anything? Pretty nasty. The test to put yourself out (which you can't do if you failed the wp test)? Horrendous.

3.

The Infamy purchase system isn't perfect, yeah. Buying plasma pistols in bulk and then trading them? Congratulations, you just discovered bartering. Now, as to whom is supplying this infinite supply of plasma pistols, I'm curious! Not everything is available everywhere, after all!

4.

Presumably the logic here is that in the grimdark world of 40k, there are no Picatinny rails. Thus, getting an upgrade to an existing weapon means finding an upgrade fitting not only that type of weapon, but that specific weapon made by that specific forgeworld during that specific time period. Welcome to a world without industry standards. Sucks, doesn't it?

As for DH being better than BC? HAH! BC has issues. Massive, heaping issues, but it's leaps ahead in comparison to DH, which has almost all the same issues AND others, such as the massive overpowering dominance of full-auto.



#3 Amaimon

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 02:09 AM

1. Yeah, about that. We earned 7k xp + 7k starting. I dropped that method of counting because of confusion it makes, but sometimes I still cling to it. Our problem was that our GM forced us to make a pact of linked fates? or something like that. On one session (In temple of lies) two of us died, and rolled really high, so we lost about 25 in one session, and were back at 20. Maybe our GM isnt giving us enough, we managed to slowly claw our way from that pit of shame.

2. I know all these things, and I agree with you. The thing is, that up to present, our longest fighting range was about 200m or something. Most of fights happens indoors or inside space ships. Not much room for sniping. Oh and btw, maximum range of long las is 600 which sucks for a sniper rifle. Another point for autocannons.

About greater minions - I want to buy them from my first friggin session, but my infamy is to low. FML ;/ I know that flamers are good, but only on specific types of enemies. I have normal minion with two heavy flamers - it is insta horde killer. Something about 14+2d5 magnitude damage. Which remind me, that single hordes are weak.

3. Yeah unfortunately it isnt the calixis sector. Oh yeah that reminds me another thing about infamy - you cannot re-roll skill tests. That means dodge tests.

4. Agreed, but i presume that if I have some tech-lab, i can weld scope to a gun? or glue it or duct tape it, whatever. I can go to heretek who dont cares about machine spirits, and can attach that damned thing to it.

About DH being better. I agree that BC is a huuge step forward. In terms of weapons, skills, character progression, lightning attacks, and psychic powers which are great - finally sorted, with modifiers and stuff (thou I think, there are too many bolts, which are too easy to doge, and chance for serious manifestation is negligible(especially with warp lock)).

Yea, maybe overall BC is better. These issue i presented here can be overcomed, but nonetheless are very anoying, and force you to follow certain patterns. Only infamy is a real pain in the butt. Full auto wasnt that bad. Seal wounds, psychic blade, firestorm, regenerate and blood boil, were much, much worse.

I would give DH 8,5/10 - because of psychic powers, and redundant skills

and to  BC 9/10 - because of infamy issues.

 



#4 Reverend mort

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 04:58 PM

1. Are you using and/or succeeding at your compacts? I mean, presuming 500 xp a session that's still 14 games. What the hell have you been doing?

2. Stop being passive in your fights. Take charge, make ambushes and engage your enemies on your terms, not theirs.

3. Ehhh, yes you can. Assuming your corruption is 21 or higher, you can reroll any characteristic test. All skill tests go under a characteristic, and can thus be rerolled. As can all infamy tests and corruption tests. Otherwise, the only thing you can reroll is… to-hit. And that's absurd, so!

4. Sights need millimeter precision and alignment. It's not just about duct taping them on. I mean you can, but then you get a badly aligned sight and you're if anything less likely to hit what you're aiming at. And, likewise, it's not about finding someone to do said gluing, it's about finding a sight that works with the gun. Right size, right range, right zoom, right fittings, right weight. Which, in the world of infinite variety that is the BC gun market, is no mean feat.



#5 HappyDaze

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:26 PM

Reverend mort said:

4. Sights need millimeter precision and alignment. It's not just about duct taping them on. I mean you can, but then you get a badly aligned sight and you're if anything less likely to hit what you're aiming at. And, likewise, it's not about finding someone to do said gluing, it's about finding a sight that works with the gun. Right size, right range, right zoom, right fittings, right weight. Which, in the world of infinite variety that is the BC gun market, is no mean feat.

Actually, it IS about finding someone to do the gluing.

The setting is set up with near infinite variety, but skilled armourers adapt such items to work together all the time. While it's not a matter of gluing, it is a fairly straightforward matter of getting someone with Trade (Armourer) to fit together what you have and make it work rather than trying to find the exact one-in-a-billion scope that matches the pinstriping of your favorite boomstick.


Ignore, Ignore, you must learn Ignore!

 

Now Ignoring: Nobody.


#6 Cjalw1

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:27 PM

[QUOT

Amaimon said:

3. Buy your team a set of 4 plasma pistols. Or to yourself, and then sell them to buy some more stuff. No difference between 2 and 4? Why stop at two? Each team member repeats until succesful. 

4. Hey i want a laser sight to my plasma pistol! No can do, better buy yourself another pistol. Why simple scope, that can be attached to anything has the same avalibility as the gun? It has some advantages and disadvantages, but come on. We divided weapon upgrades to attachments and modifications. Attachments, can be dismantled and attached to another gun. Modifications cannot, because they are in buit. Attachments have their own availibilty, while modifications generally follow rules of BC. 

What do you think on those subjects? Or others? We generally came to think that DH was overall better system, because we didn't have to make many modifications, whereas in BC, we constantly find new annoying issues. Sorry for any mistakes, but it's 2:30 am, and I am little drunk, but what the hell :)

 

i did not understand these two.

3. What? is there something Broken about plasma pistols rarity?

4 can we have a list of weapon Attachments?



#7 Amaimon

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:03 PM

 @ Reverend Mort

1. We don't use compatcs too much. We use them only on greater endavours only. Negotiations, making alliances, or one adventure missions, are to small for compacts. Or we are simply too lazy. I mean how is this compact suppose to look?Go to person 1 and talk, go to person 2 and talk, go to person 3 and talk. Chose one person, and make friends with them.  Our GM is handling infamy points sparsely - about 2 -5 per game sessions, and only conclussive one. On some sessions we earned nothing of course. 

3. Are you sure? In playing the game it says that skill test are only goverened by coresponding characteristic, but are otherwise sepratate things with separate paragraphs. We also found that annoying, but this is how we understood that by RAW. 

 

@Cjalw1 

3. No. There is something broken in no difference between aquiring two and four plasma pistols. 

4. Certainly

Censer Attachment

Mag-lock Holster/Scabbard

Melee Attachment

Photo sight,  (HOLY **** I JUST KILLED A HORNET), Red dot, Suspensors, Telescopic Sight, Omni-scope, Preysence Sight

Exterminator Cartridge

Stabilizer Harness

Tripods and Bipods

Duplus Ammo Clips



#8 Cifer

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:52 AM

 @Amaimon

1. Yeah, about that. We earned 7k xp + 7k starting. I dropped that method of counting because of confusion it makes, but sometimes I still cling to it. Our problem was that our GM forced us to make a pact of linked fates? or something like that. On one session (In temple of lies) two of us died, and rolled really high, so we lost about 25 in one session, and were back at 20. Maybe our GM isnt giving us enough, we managed to slowly claw our way from that pit of shame.

You are aware that every character has an infamy score of their own and only the one who dies loses some points of his, right? This isn't Rogue Trader's Profit Factor.

 

3. Buy your team a set of 4 plasma pistols. Or to yourself, and then sell them to buy some more stuff. No difference between 2 and 4? Why stop at two? Each team member repeats until succesful.

If you buy stuff for your team too regularly, take a look at the box on page 307 - the recipients of your gifts run the risk of losing Infamy as they appear too weak to get their own equipment. 



#9 Amaimon

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:19 AM

 @Cipher

1. check GM kit for The Ritual of Shackled Destiny. If one of us dies, all others suffers half of his infamy loss. Conversly if one of us gains infamy due to personal goals - the rest gains half of his gain. It really sucks, and doesnt pay off at all. We were forced to make that pact or die in huge reactor explosion, which we could not stop. Some kind of deamon is playing with us seriously. 

2. I am aware of risk of dependency. That's why we exchange items of the same availibilty, which we dont need. On the last session i gave 2 of my Plasma pistols to fellow heretek in exchange for power axe. We also shared refractor fields, cameleon cloaks. 



#10 Cifer

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 08:14 AM

 1. check GM kit for The Ritual of Shackled Destiny. If one of us dies, all others suffers half of his infamy loss. Conversly if one of us gains infamy due to personal goals - the rest gains half of his gain. It really sucks, and doesnt pay off at all. We were forced to make that pact or die in huge reactor explosion, which we could not stop. Some kind of deamon is playing with us seriously.

So… how are the rules here at fault, exactly? The rules don't say you have to use this ritual…

 

2. I am aware of risk of dependency. That's why we exchange items of the same availibilty, which we dont need. On the last session i gave 2 of my Plasma pistols to fellow heretek in exchange for power axe. We also shared refractor fields, cameleon cloaks.

And what's the problem? A group that has found a way to pool their ressources without appearing weak will prosper.



#11 Dulahan

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:41 AM

Cifer said:

 1. check GM kit for The Ritual of Shackled Destiny. If one of us dies, all others suffers half of his infamy loss. Conversly if one of us gains infamy due to personal goals - the rest gains half of his gain. It really sucks, and doesnt pay off at all. We were forced to make that pact or die in huge reactor explosion, which we could not stop. Some kind of deamon is playing with us seriously.

So… how are the rules here at fault, exactly? The rules don't say you have to use this ritual…

 

Though in the OP's case, it sounds like their GM DID say they had to use the ritual.  If the ritual had not been there, it might not have happened.  So arguably it is the Rules' fault if only because the rule was there and is now screwing over multiple people.



#12 Cifer

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:45 AM

 …and if your GM forces you, a freshly-created character, to use a daemon weapon created from a Greater Daemon that possesses you in short order, the daemon weapon rules are at fault? Um…



#13 Amaimon

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:46 AM

Im not complaining about the rules of the ritual. Im complaining because its pain in the ass, for my character. 

The think I dislike in infamy is its connection to buying stuff. So far it has been divided on fate points and thrones/profit/influence/renown and worked pretty well. I like infamy as an atribute for controling things, altering mutations, geting gifts of the gods, even buying things. I dont like its degrading at this rate when someone dies. I agree it should diminish when someone avoids death, but maybe at half that rate, it is now. Burning infamy point (which would be separate) and loosing 5+1d5 infamy would sound reasonable. 

With sharing things, there is no problem whatsoever. Only with buying and selling. If you dont get it let me explain.

I buy 4 very rare pistols for total extremely rare (-30). 

I keep two, and sell two for total bonus +30 to buy 4 more. Total aquisition modifier +0. I think I prefer money. Thou I understand that at some point it would be inconvenient. Sadly I don't know the solution for the problem, so we play by the rules. It's not that bad actulally. It's better for players that way. I'm just sayin'. 



#14 Amaimon

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:49 AM

 Oh made mistake there. 2-4 plasma pistols are still very rare so -20. The point remains the same. 



#15 Reverend mort

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:06 PM

Well, one reason for your rapidly declining Infamy is that BC is very much built under the assumption that the characters are always pursing compacts. That's the main infamy gaining system in the game. If you're not doing that, well, then it's no surprise your Infamy is falling, especially with that ritual and your apparently rather sharp rate of attrition.

So INSIST you get compacts. And tell your GM that some guy on the internet consider that ritual a real **** move. In fact, my first suggested compact for you: Break that ritual. And kill every NPC even vaguely connected to it.

As for how compacts look, well, UP TO YOU AS PLAYERS. You can design them however you want, but the idea is to set a goal for your group and go out and pursue it, not just let the gm blow you whichever way. Be proactive, it's the only way to prosper.



#16 K0balt

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 12:59 AM

-Compacts: I find compacts restraining, artificial, and illogical, if not as RP tools. It's a good way to ensure agreements between PCs and NPCs are held, under pain of whatever, but as gameplay tools, they are useless. I prefer to dole out Infamy as needed, when deserved, rather than at illogical junctures. I handle "death" in the same way, to balance things out and avoid the problem you mentionned.

-The ritual: you got screwed. But then again, that happens, what are you gonna do, whine like an Imperial, or f*** **** up until you're free? Your choice.

-Attachments: as human technology is solely based on the SCS, which emphasizes compatibility, redundancy, solidity and efficiency, I am of the opinion that any mass-produced sight can be attached to any mass-produced gun. And the same goes for any kind of external upgrade. Seriously, considering how boxy and practical these weapons are, I think the SCS equivalents of Picatinny rails are very widespread. Of course, this doesn't apply to more exotic or alien designs.

-Economy: yes it's f'ed up. Using the rules literally makes little to no sense, or requires asinine justifications.



#17 Amaimon

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:24 AM

 @K0balt - Well said! Give im' another beer. Don't worry, blood will be spilled, and all will die! By now I am realy pissed. 

Oh, and by the way I got some exciting news, that will ruin somebodys day. Sorry to eat your sweetroll guys. My question to FFG. 

I have a question about spending infamy points to re-roll Characteristics Tests. Does Skill Test are type of Characteristics Tests? eg. Can you re-roll failed dodge test?

Reply from Tim: 

 I'd say no, especially as page 36 has separate entries for Skill Tests and Characteristic Tests.

My kind of reasoning.



#18 Cifer

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:40 AM

Duly noted and ignored. Restricting rerolls to characteristic tests makes no sense at all and has never been the case for Fate Points in the prior systems.



#19 Nathiel

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:18 AM

If you can reroll attacks, you should be able to reroll evasions too.



#20 Reverend mort

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:22 AM

Yeah, with Cifer there. Silly, nonsensical, completely biased in favor of combat and not in any way fun.

@K0balt - Since when are compacts about deals between NPC's and PC? My interpretation has always been that they're like Deathwatch Objectives. Goals that the characters set for themselves, and then follow through, and used as a mechanic for measuring the infamy one would earn from doing it in the first place, and lose from failing after setting out to do it.






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