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Planetary Governors, Starships and internal politics within the Imperium


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#1 Ubernatus

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 06:44 AM

 Hello guys i've just registered to the forums cheers! :) I have many questions that i wonder. First is it possible that a planetary governor to have his own warp capable ship or ships ? And if it is possible is a war between planets possible ? Is it possible to bribe an lets say Adeptus Mechanicus priest or an Adeptus Arbites Judge ? And for now the last one in Dark Heresy, it says that Planetary Governors and their choosing is varies from planet to planet. It can be anything (from democracy to hereditary or appointed etc.) But in most sources (and that includes Rogue Trader too) it is often hereditary governor system (like a king etc.) and also in Dark Heresy it says that for governors it is possible to create their empires etc. Never saw anything like that in any other source… What do you use in your games ?



#2 Luddite

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:13 AM

Hi Ubernatus, and welcome to the forum.

 

Ubernatus said:

First is it possible that a planetary governor to have his own warp capable ship or ships ?

Yes its possible.  However, in most cases its improbable and likely to attract attention from various Imperial authorities, especially the Adeptus Arbites.  Remember a planetary governor has a lot of responsibility associated mainly with retaining control over their world(s) and ensuring the Imperial Tithes keep flowing.

The Arbites are likely to be very interested in why a planetary governor need Warp ships, and what he intends to do with them.  A governor for example with responsibility for several worlds (perhaps a Hive world and its associated argiworlds and mining supply worlds, might well needWarp ships to get the food and raw materials to the hive world.

A governor who constructs a massive Warp-capablw warfleet and diverts his tithes to build it is likely to be VERY suspicious!

Ubernatus said:

And if it is possible is a war between planets possible ?

Yes!

However, this is likely to attract the immediate attention of the Imperial authorities.  The Adeptus Munitorum will quickly raise and send in Imperial Guard from surrounding worlds to restore order…

Ubernatus said:

Is it possible to bribe an lets say Adeptus Mechanicus priest

Yes, especially with archaeotech!  And if you've got a functioning 'Standard Template Construct (STC) to offer your could probably bribe the Mechanicus High Lord!  

However, the Tech Priests are an odd lot and if you have some tech they're interested in they're likely to simply send in the Skitarii Tech Guard to kill you and take it.

Ubernatus said:

or an Adeptus Arbites Judge ?

Yes, they're only human after all.  However depending what you're bribing them to do, it'll probably have to be a VERY large bribe…

Ubernatus said:

And for now the last one in Dark Heresy, it says that Planetary Governors and their choosing is varies from planet to planet. It can be anything (from democracy to hereditary or appointed etc.) But in most sources (and that includes Rogue Trader too) it is often hereditary governor system (like a king etc.) and also in Dark Heresy it says that for governors it is possible to create their empires etc. Never saw anything like that in any other source… What do you use in your games ?


I wrote an article about the Administratum that explains the position of a Planetary Governor.  This might help you…
 

 

http://darkreign40k....hp?topic=4455.0

I'll copy the relevant section here:

Imperial Commanders (Planetary Administrators, Governors, or ‘Lords’)
Imperial Commanders are charged with governing a planet, continent, special project, or other momentous appointment. They are duty-bound to the Administratum, reporting to a sub-sector commander, but are given considerable operational freedom as to how they fulfil this duty. An Imperial Commander must;
1. enact Administratum/Adeptus Terra edicts
2. keep order
3. keep taxes/quotas flowing
4. identify and control psykers,
5. contain mutation and heresy
They are otherwise free to implement Imperial Law and authority as they see fit .
Imperial Commanders marshal considerable resources which gives them a measure of power. They may raise private armies, interplanetary and even interstellar fleets, as well as establishing their own forms of governance and control. As long as they meet their duties they are free to create their own structures. Most will turn to the Administratum, and indeed other parts of the Adeptus Terra, for help ensuring skilled and effective governance that secures their position.
Due to the vast distances and communication issues that compromise central control, many see the Imperial Commanders as the ‘most important’ governors in the Imperium. They are powerful individuals able to marshal an entire world’s resources ; this gives them the ability to react to local threats swiftly, protecting the Imperium. It also makes them dangerous, with the possibility of sedition and corruption ever-present.
To maintain continuity of governance, ‘Imperial Commander’ is often hereditary role, with the office passed through a noble dynasty like the feudal lords of old .

Imperial Commanders wear gray robes, which may be trimmed with white.

 



#3 ranoncles

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:25 AM

Hello and welcome to the forum.

 

Regarding your questions:

1) Can a governor have warp capable ships?

2) Can Imperial planets war against each other?

3) Is it possible to bribe a tech-priest and an arbites?

4) Can governor's create their own empires?

 

1 = This could mean 2 things; can a governor have his own private warp capable vessel? Answer is yes. Can a governor have his own warp capable fleet? Answer is not likely. I can't recall seeing anything which specifically prohibits this but I'd say it is not very likely because ships are immensely expensive to build in materials and time. Very likely more expensive than a governor could afford. A sector or sub-sector lord might be able to build a fleet but people (such as the High Lords and the Imperial Navy) would wonder why this fleet was being built? Governor's are expected to raise PDF's and system defences (including system warships) but gaining military assets which could be used to rebel would be under scrutiny.

2 = Yes, and this is mentioned in official stories. A famous example is the Badab War in which 2 (sub) sectors wage war over economic assets. In fact, most internal wars are fought over resources. They are usually 'allowed' to occur as long as they are quick and imperial tithes are not threatened. Like renaissance warfare, these internal wars lead to some border adjustments or recognition of claims on trade routes and/or scarce resources. Should a (sub-)sector lord try to enlarge his holdings, the High Lords will likely respond to prevent too much power from falling into one person's hands….The Imperium is big on balance of power/competing power centres. If tithes are endangered, imperial justice is swift and merciless. In the Badab War, the instigators (the trade lords of Karthago) were executed and the entire population of their principal world was sentenced to six generations of indentured servitude.

3 = Bribing a tech-priest is easy. Just offer them something they want. Tech-priests assigned to planets often support their local governor in such internal conflicts. In fact, it would be almost impossible to fight any war without their assistance. Arbites is less likely. Individuals can always be 'corrupted' but Arbites focus on maintaining Imperial rule. As long as Imperial rule is maintained and not endangered by military adventures, they will likely not interfere.

4 = That depends on your definition of Empire. Any attempt at independence from the Imperium will be seen as heresy. But a local governor trying to increase his influence is not considered a bad thing. As long as the tithes flow and the sub-sector lord has no issue with it, creating a pocket empire of allied planets is fine. In fact, such efforts are typical but they often don't include outright warfare. Border clashes, 'pirates' being used as proxies, politicking in sector capitals and bitter fights for scarce assets are the usual means to create a local empire. But always under the ultimate control of the Imperium.

That's not to say ambitious governors or better yet, sub sector lords haven't tried to secede. And sometimes succesfully. Until the Imperium could either muster enough force to bring the area back into the fold or accept that it was not possible to do so atm. 



#4 ranoncles

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:36 AM

Luddite said:

I wrote an article about the Administratum that explains the position of a Planetary Governor.  This might help you…  

http://darkreign40k....hp?topic=4455.0

I'll copy the relevant section here:

Imperial Commanders (Planetary Administrators, Governors, or ‘Lords’)
Imperial Commanders are charged with governing a planet, continent, special project, or other momentous appointment. They are duty-bound to the Administratum, reporting to a sub-sector commander, but are given considerable operational freedom as to how they fulfil this duty. An Imperial Commander must;
1. enact Administratum/Adeptus Terra edicts
2. keep order
3. keep taxes/quotas flowing
4. identify and control psykers,
5. contain mutation and heresy
They are otherwise free to implement Imperial Law and authority as they see fit .
Imperial Commanders marshal considerable resources which gives them a measure of power. They may raise private armies, interplanetary and even interstellar fleets, as well as establishing their own forms of governance and control. As long as they meet their duties they are free to create their own structures. Most will turn to the Administratum, and indeed other parts of the Adeptus Terra, for help ensuring skilled and effective governance that secures their position.
Due to the vast distances and communication issues that compromise central control, many see the Imperial Commanders as the ‘most important’ governors in the Imperium. They are powerful individuals able to marshal an entire world’s resources ; this gives them the ability to react to local threats swiftly, protecting the Imperium. It also makes them dangerous, with the possibility of sedition and corruption ever-present.
To maintain continuity of governance, ‘Imperial Commander’ is often hereditary role, with the office passed through a noble dynasty like the feudal lords of old .

Imperial Commanders wear gray robes, which may be trimmed with white.

Hi, Luddite.

I read your project and it seems a very decent interpretation of the Imperium and the powers of governors although I disagree on the part where you claim they may raise interstellar fleets. Fleets and ships are very highly regulated and registered by the Imperium as they are the only way in which heresy can be 'exported'. Gaining ship's warrants is a huge deal (see Rogue Traders and the limitations placed on chartist captains etc.). So any yokel with a planet is not going to be allowed to raise huge space fleets. If only because the Imperial Navy likes to be the biggest fish in the pond. They even dislike Rogue Trader's bringing their fleets back into Imperial space (see the novels) so I wonder where you got your inspiration on this?

 

Perhaps you should stress more clearly that your work is a fan's interpretation of the Imperium and thus not official. New forum members might not be able to make that distinction ;-)

 

 



#5 Luthor Harkon

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:42 AM

Normally, most Planetary Governors do not have warp capable ships, at least no warships. The only warp capable warships in the Imperium are in the hands of the Imperial Navy, the Adeptus Astra Telepathica (i.e. the Leage of Blackships to be more precisely), the many Adeptus Astartes Chapters, the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Adeptus Arbites, to a low degree the Adeptus Ministorum, Rogue Traders and sometimes the Inquisition.
They might have access to warp capable trading ships belonging to the odd Chartist Captain or a trading cartel though. Armed ships at their disposal tend to be defence monitors not able to any form of warp travel. Anything else could be considered heresy and treason, as these type of people try to build their own small Empires and refuse to pay their tithes…

It is certainly possible to bribe a Tech Priest or a Judge, though it tends to be rather difficult. Both tend to be beyond mere worldly goods, so it must be something “special” to bribe them if possible at all. To bribe a Judge should be about as difficult to bribe as an Inquisitor, maybe even more so due to their very puritanical attitude. So, under normal circumstances it should be about impossible to bribe a Judge. A high ranking Tech-Priest (i.e. a Magos) could only be bribed by things like long forgotten Archeotech or something similar.

Warrants of Trade seem to be indeed mostly appointed and/or hereditary. Planetary Governors are part of a feudal structure most of the time as is the whole Imperium / Adeptus Terra. Though sometimes the Governor is a monarch, sometimes the most powerful planetary warlord, sometimes he is appointed by the Administratum for a time or is part of the Adeptus Terra himself, sometimes he is sort of elected by the other nobles on the planet and so on.



#6 Ubernatus

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 09:31 AM

 If the problem is the seccession, then lets say they pay their tithes very well and even more maybe… I have never seen an obligation to not having warp capable ships to governors so if they can afford the resources and political connections lets say a sector lord level, then it seems very likely in my opinion. That is why i am asking is there any canonical obligation about it?



#7 Radwraith

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 06:14 PM

 There is nothing stopping a Governor from having his own warp capable "Yacht". However, as has been previously stated; If said Yacht is a Warship then the Governor is infringing on the duty of the Imperial Navy and likely face sanction. Still, A single frigate; Not likely a big problem. Some bribes and spreading of influence and it's all better now. If it's a Battlecruiser with associated escort; Better have that Warrant of trade handy or he is in deep doo-doo! On the bright side; It's not likely the lords of terra will mobilize an entire military campaign over this. Assassins are just SOO much cheaper!



#8 Ubernatus

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:05 AM

 It says that in the Imperium, there are civilian warp capable vessels. I really wonder where do you get these what do you offer to get them… For a Merchant Charter and a merchant transport vessel it seems you have to prove yourself as a good trader and you have to buy or sign for the chart. And they give you the transport vessel and the route… And as i read about Badab War, the Administratum was very slow to react (because of bureaucratic problems) and when they intervened it was too late… So if we can explain how can a person gets his own vessel (buying or building or both if it is possible) it will be much easier to portray the Imperium and its internal conflicts.



#9 Vedneros

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 05:13 AM

 Well it is damn possible. But with taking a lot of risks! And there are multiple ways to acquire one of these.

First and safest probability is a royal marriage with a Chartist Captain or a Rogue Trader family. Even a marriage with Imperial Navy officers is possible! Of course last one wont give you the power to use the navy to invade other planets but it is a start build a powerbase.

Second one is the possibility of joining a war by himself as a commander of his army and proving himself as a war hero and acquiring a warrant of trader by himself. Of course chances are they are likely give it to you is very small but it is a possibility

Third is much more dangerous one. Build one in your planet as a secret project. If you keep your tithes, keep a low profile and be nice to Imperial Officers that comes to your planet, and you most likely they won't find your 'little' secret. Perhaps some bribery will be necessary. If your governor chooses this way most likely he won't be building anything beyond a Raider (or if he really gone nice with the local Adeptus Mechanicus a Frigate.) So you can forget about creating vast Grand Cruiser.

And the last one that comes to mind for now is the most risky and dangerous one. PRETENDING as you own a warrant of trade for acquiring a ship! As mentioned in the Rogue Trader Core Rulebook many low level workers of the Imperium never questions those high above… And think about the vast size of the Imperium and the possibilty of hiding your new vessel to somewhere safe

But the real problem is after you get your vessel, what do you plan to do? If you use it to planetary strikes you will draw attention and questioning. If you go for piracy that would be even more suspicious….



#10 Vedneros

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:26 AM

And again in most scenarios (save perhaps the first one)  you won't be getting a major war fleet. You can't even have a cruiser class. Your planetary governor can only receive a few raiders or transports (maaaaybe frigates) with the methods i described. So that governor can forget about massive fleets and having SW style personal armadas. It is not because it is forbidden them to have any ship, it is because there is no way that they can afford something like that, and if they can there is nothing that stop the Navy/Inquisition/Arbites to respond swiftly and brutally to this manner.

But if he is a sub-sector governor that's whole different story. Sub sectors are much more valuable and it won't be easy to crush them like a bug and also he will have far better resources and connections (even can have a Navy Batllegroup that support him) ( and of course im not talking about a seccession from the Imperium here) and the Imperium won't likely want to lose and entire sub sector. So in a case like Barab War it involves the sub sector level conflict and much more resources and connections. 

And there is another case that most players and GMs make their mistakes. And that is thinking the Imperium as a whole unified to death faction. Hell no! If you check the Dark Heresy book you will see that the conflicts between Adeptas are not forbidden. They are encouraged even! Imperium is not an organization that acts and think as a single mind. So in a case that that puny little governor's rise to power will serve the best interests to higher above it will be a whole different story and would be a really interesting storyline indeed :)

And if you refuse my words as no it isn't written in fluff blah blah! No i won't accept it! We are talking about what can be done here and with enough common sense you can see that all my scenarios are really possible. And the RPG ers nowadays are too scared to fill the blanks that writers come up with as it seem… 

And also a question to you that who says the interstellar traffic is too strictly controlled, how can you explain pirates if you are too sure about the extra careful approach that Administratum does ? It is a dark, chaotic and hostile universe so make it look like one! If you are looking for a fluff that is the fluff you must seek!



#11 Adeptus-B

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:38 AM

Luddite said:

Ubernatus said:

 

And if it is possible is a war between planets possible ?

 

 

Yes!

However, this is likely to attract the immediate attention of the Imperial authorities.  The Adeptus Munitorum will quickly raise and send in Imperial Guard from surrounding worlds to restore order…

 

It was my impression that the Adeptus only intervine in 'civil wars' if they interfere with the collection of the Imperial Tithe. As long as the Emperor gets His due, a certain ammount of strife is tollerated within the Imperium. Look at the planet Acreage (as detailed in the module Maggots In The Meat) for an example of an ongoing conflict that the Adeptus has taken a 'hands-off' approach to.



#12 Vedneros

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 01:38 AM

 Yes you are right. Imperium does not care if their taxes are paid and seccession is not made. But interplanetary conflicts are a different story. It involves one of the most precious artifacts of the 41st Millenium: Starships… So this complicates things badly. Your ambitious governor must carefully plan it's planetary invasion or he is in trouble because of the authorities… He will need support or an opportunity shows up.



#13 Radwraith

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 04:49 AM

 Again: It depends on what you want your ship (or ships) to do. As pointed out earlier, If you are strictly a planetary governor you could probably get your hands on a singe ship such as a transport or Clipper without to much trouble. If you are trying to rise in station (To say Subsector Governor or higher) you will have to do some maneuvering first. You could try to make a case that the current occupant of the seat you want is a Progressive Heretic in service to Slaanesh. (Most Imperial Nobility would seem to fit the profile anyway!) Enough planted evidence (Or maybe it will even turn out to be true!) then your Governor could "volunteer" his services to bring said world back into compliance. If the adeptus Terra buys into your argument then you may be given the title of "Lord General" and assigned Naval assets to transport and protect your newly inducted IG regiments. Voila! Instant personal Starfleet!  If you are successful; You will 'naturally' take over your predecessor's position and will likely have access to some of your Naval assets in order to maintain order!

Another possibility in the same vein is to petition to start a crusade to reclaim world X (Or even a sector) for the Emperor. Same basic premise but now you don't need to undermine one of your Peers (Who would no doubt respond!). 



#14 Vedneros

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:08 AM

Radwraith said:

 Again: It depends on what you want your ship (or ships) to do. As pointed out earlier, If you are strictly a planetary governor you could probably get your hands on a singe ship such as a transport or Clipper without to much trouble. If you are trying to rise in station (To say Subsector Governor or higher) you will have to do some maneuvering first. You could try to make a case that the current occupant of the seat you want is a Progressive Heretic in service to Slaanesh. (Most Imperial Nobility would seem to fit the profile anyway!) Enough planted evidence (Or maybe it will even turn out to be true!) then your Governor could "volunteer" his services to bring said world back into compliance. If the adeptus Terra buys into your argument then you may be given the title of "Lord General" and assigned Naval assets to transport and protect your newly inducted IG regiments. Voila! Instant personal Starfleet!  If you are successful; You will 'naturally' take over your predecessor's position and will likely have access to some of your Naval assets in order to maintain order!

Another possibility in the same vein is to petition to start a crusade to reclaim world X (Or even a sector) for the Emperor. Same basic premise but now you don't need to undermine one of your Peers (Who would no doubt respond!). 

 

That's the spirit!!! :D And one thing about Warhammer 40K it is a HUGE place. So huge that there shouldn't be any certainity. You are talking about a million worlds here. And that is the estmated numbers just within the Imperium!!! There is no such thing as 'no it can't be done or no it can't happen' in a place so huge… There are things that are hard, really really hard and really really easy. But no impossibilities. Because of it's miniature nature every written canon fluff is so 'customizable' too (think about Imperial Guard, Space Marines, STC, Dark Age of Technology Government types of the planets, superstitous nature of the men(many have never seen a starship or possibility of void travel) and the most customizable thing the Warp). So you can play a Lord of the Rings, Fallout or a Star Wars… And you can play all of these in a single campaign! (i'm not recommending it though don't mess things too much :D ) Think freely and openly.. You will see that fluff of 40 k is very loosely tied and you can justify anything… (of course don't go out of bounds of common sense and grimdark :D )



#15 Ubernatus

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 01:16 PM

Vedneros said:

Radwraith said:

 

 Again: It depends on what you want your ship (or ships) to do. As pointed out earlier, If you are strictly a planetary governor you could probably get your hands on a singe ship such as a transport or Clipper without to much trouble. If you are trying to rise in station (To say Subsector Governor or higher) you will have to do some maneuvering first. You could try to make a case that the current occupant of the seat you want is a Progressive Heretic in service to Slaanesh. (Most Imperial Nobility would seem to fit the profile anyway!) Enough planted evidence (Or maybe it will even turn out to be true!) then your Governor could "volunteer" his services to bring said world back into compliance. If the adeptus Terra buys into your argument then you may be given the title of "Lord General" and assigned Naval assets to transport and protect your newly inducted IG regiments. Voila! Instant personal Starfleet!  If you are successful; You will 'naturally' take over your predecessor's position and will likely have access to some of your Naval assets in order to maintain order!

Another possibility in the same vein is to petition to start a crusade to reclaim world X (Or even a sector) for the Emperor. Same basic premise but now you don't need to undermine one of your Peers (Who would no doubt respond!). 

 

 

 

That's the spirit!!! :D And one thing about Warhammer 40K it is a HUGE place. So huge that there shouldn't be any certainity. You are talking about a million worlds here. And that is the estmated numbers just within the Imperium!!! There is no such thing as 'no it can't be done or no it can't happen' in a place so huge… There are things that are hard, really really hard and really really easy. But no impossibilities. Because of it's miniature nature every written canon fluff is so 'customizable' too (think about Imperial Guard, Space Marines, STC, Dark Age of Technology Government types of the planets, superstitous nature of the men(many have never seen a starship or possibility of void travel) and the most customizable thing the Warp). So you can play a Lord of the Rings, Fallout or a Star Wars… And you can play all of these in a single campaign! (i'm not recommending it though don't mess things too much :D ) Think freely and openly.. You will see that fluff of 40 k is very loosely tied and you can justify anything… (of course don't go out of bounds of common sense and grimdark :D )

Wow! Never thought that 40 k would be that customizable and huge… It is amazing to know this really :)



#16 Luthor Harkon

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 12:19 AM

Ubernatus said:

It can be anything (from democracy to hereditary or appointed etc.) But in most sources (and that includes Rogue Trader too) it is often hereditary governor system (like a king etc.) and also in Dark Heresy it says that for governors it is possible to create their empires etc. Never saw anything like that in any other source… What do you use in your games ?

 

I would not say most are hereditary. It seems quite a couple of governors are sort of elected by (and mostly from) the planets nobles or at least the high nobility. In Sinophia (and Malfi?) for example the nobles elect/appoint one of their own to act as palnetray governor. Often this is not even the most powerful noble but more some sort of representative front man.

Regarding your last question, in our game my PCs were rather often on a planet that is officially considered a Frontier World by the Administratum, even though it is rather advanced in regard to techology and infra-structure. It is a horribly cold ice world with only a single real (domed) city and a population of only a few tens of million therein. Because of that and because the local major trading cartel does its best to keep the status of Frontier World for tithe reasons alone, the Adminstratum (known for its speed…) did not yet declared it Hive or Mining World. This means the planet has a local colonial council made up of the most important nobles and cartel owners and this sort of parliament elects the governor, who is highly monitored by a Chancelor-Adept deployed by the Adminitratum (who has the real power). So, its sort of a classical republic or maybe constitutional monarchy.



#17 trentmorten

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:36 AM

I think most worlds in the imperium have governorships that fall into the following systems ( in order of prevalence):


1. Elective: A certain group of people (usually the heads of major noble houses, who act as vassals) voice their opinion on the planetary governor and vote as to who gets the role. Some may allow him to be removed midway through a tenure, others not. how the electors are chosen varies from planet to planet. in this system the strength of the governor can vary immensely, from absolute ruler with the full support of a powerful group of nobles, to figureheads put on the throne for the prestige of their house. (Roman Empire)
 

2. hereditary: According to tradition, the planetary governor passes down their title to a designated heir. the qualifications of this heir might be being the eldest male child, being the eldest child of his sister, being his eldest sibling etc. nobody gets a say in this and who the heir is might be open to debate. (British monarchy)
 

3. Domination: the ruler is the governor simply by having the biggest stick, whether that is an army or control over the only food producing area on the world. this lever is what gives the governor their power and will often be exploited to the hilt to get more tax thrones from their unwilling subjects. (Panem from the hunger games)
 

There is a lot of evidence for privately owned warp ships, whether it is the shape of chartist charters or free (rogue) trader charters. Few would be warships although rogue trader has ambition class cruisers, which are designed and commissioned by individuals who are simply very rich. house Krin is also said be offering a frigate as a bounty. Most would be in the business of making money but a world with lots of ork raiders nearby would be dumb not to have an active local fleet. Indeed, i think the adeptus terra would smile on a governor who tithed ships simply because they don't need picking up and transporting to a warzone by an imperial force.
 

I think sector wars would be uncommon, but not unheard of, and as long as the tithe wasn't impacted too badly, the imperium wouldn't consider the cost of intervening to be worth it. The trade wars between Sinophio and Scintilla are a good example. Of course, should a victor start making even the smallest noise about trying to cede from the imperium at large, then bad things would happen.
 






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