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Shadow Attach. and Events in Setup


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#1 sabrefox

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 03:10 PM

I know you can put cards into Shadows during setup, but I always thought the original rules specification of locations and characters still applied, thus limiting you to only those card types.  Reviewing the Shadows rules about setup, it only states, "Shadows cards can also be placed into Shadows during setup, by spending 2 gold from the initial 5 gold allocated for setup".  Does this mean that events and attachments with the Shadows crest can be put into Shadows during setup?



#2 ktom

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 03:20 PM

sabrefox said:

I know you can put cards into Shadows during setup, but I always thought the original rules specification of locations and characters still applied, thus limiting you to only those card types.  Reviewing the Shadows rules about setup, it only states, "Shadows cards can also be placed into Shadows during setup, by spending 2 gold from the initial 5 gold allocated for setup".  Does this mean that events and attachments with the Shadows crest can be put into Shadows during setup?
How is anyone supposed to verify if you only put characters and locations into Shadows during setup?

When you play a card into Shadows (or place a card into Shadows during setup), you are playing/placing a Shadow card - not a character, location, attachment or event with the Shadow crest. It's like when you play a dupe during Marshaling. You are not playing a character, location, etc. as a dupe - you are just playing a dupe. Because Shadow cards have no identity as a particular card type until they are brought into play, the rule saying you can place a card in Shadows during Setup will have no restrictions by card-type.



#3 sabrefox

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 03:51 PM

The cards have identity when they are in your hand, and according the the FAQ they only lose their identity when they are actually in Shadows.  One could argue that while you are putting the cards on the table before revealing them, they are not technically cards in Shadows.  As such, you would still have to follow the rule that "You may not place attachments during this step unless they include the “Setup” keyword in their game text".

Thanks for the clarifcation.  That will come in handy.



#4 ktom

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 04:30 PM

sabrefox said:

The cards have identity when they are in your hand,
The cards do not have a practical identity in your hand unless some other rule or effect actually refers to an identity. There is no differentiation between any of the cards in your hand until something actually says "take a character from your hand." Like Shadows, the cards in your hand are hidden information until some rule or effect specifically calls for the information to divulged.

That's the point I was trying to make earlier. A rule that says "you can only place characters and locations into Shadows during setup" is unverifiable and thus unenforceable. Saying that you can only place attachments with the "Setup" keyword during setup is verifiable the moment setup cards are revealed, so it works. But since Shadow cards are not revealed during Setup, it wouldn't work.

I'll admit that I was making an over-generalization when I said that cards have no identity until they are brought into play. It is more accurate to say that cards have no identity until that identity is made public knowledge. The game can talk about you discarding a character from your hand or deck because everyone can check that, but it cannot talk about "while you only have character cards in your hand" unless it reveals your hand for all players to see first.






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