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Question on Rules - Stealth


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#1 Strabaisen

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:27 PM

Heya Guys'n'Gals of the Imperium.

 

I'm new here at the forums and wanted to ask some questions regarding "Deathwatch" rules, regarding the use of stealth.

I'm a GM and have a campagin, wherein the team, is a Raven Guard (RG), whom I don't agree on the use of the rule. I know I can "GM Overules" but I don't want to do it that way, just because I can. I want to be sure..

So to make the Scenario.

The RG player stealths(8-10 successes - Awesome) around with a astartes stalker /w. stalker rounds - which is understandable. He doesn't want to be found . He sees a prime target and decides to take it out. He aims (half action) and shoots while making a free action called shot (-20 penalty - to make a headshot!). now I know the stalker does say he cannot be heard. But doesnt the attack make him visible?

I understand it like "a player needs the time (half action) to make the stealth attampt to hide again". - round 1, take aim (+20). round 2, called shot and hide. So the RG needs to use 2 rounds to make use he can never be seen. Or can he kille anything in stealth, and never be seen?

 

Thanks for any future answears..

-Strabaisen



#2 Thebigjul

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:28 PM

Hi,

from memory a stalker boltgun with stalker rounds can't be detected. So if you make your stealth roll to get in position for snipe and shoot your targets you doesn't have to reroll to hide.

A really great weapon with a camo cloack and a scout armour… or a raven guard with MK6 armour…

 



#3 Strabaisen

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 05:43 AM

Okay thanks for the reply Thebigjul

Then how about without both components? or using some other weapon?

And read that some people say that a power armor gives a -30 penalty to conceal/move silently?

i can only find the -10 due to being hulking… ?



#4 herichimo

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:47 AM

Strabaisen said:

 

Okay thanks for the reply Thebigjul

Then how about without both components? or using some other weapon?

And read that some people say that a power armor gives a -30 penalty to conceal/move silently?

i can only find the -10 due to being hulking… ?

 

 

The rule concerning power armor is in the armory. On page 160 under AP it states, "Any armour that provides 7 or more APs (including, Astartes power armour) inflicts a -30 penalty on the wearer's Concealment and Silent move tests." Raven Guard have a talent they can take that allows them to negate this penalty for power armor (and I'd rule only for their own personnal armor). The -10 from Hulking only affects concealment tests (not silent move) and even a sneaky git like a raven guard suffers from this penalty (you just can't change how big you are).

Stalker bolters provide a -30 half-range penalty to hear the shot from firing a normal bolt. Even though the stalker has a flash suppressor I'd say firing a normal bolt would still reveal your presence (they are rockets, think tracers). But I'd give a -10/20 (depending on the situation) penalty to any skill check to see the shooter in this case.

If using stalker rounds with a stalker bolter no tests to detect the shot are possible, meaning there is no way the target can be aware of the shot if the firer is concealed. It goes on to say, "depending on the situation, the appropriate Opposed Skill Test may be required for the firer himself to remain hidden," I'd say such a situation would be someone is looking in the direction of the firer when he shoots, or well trained military forces who know to look for a shooter after a hidden shot. (While civilians, untrained would be confused and maybe paniky and unintelligent monsters would just wonder why frank fell over all of a sudden.)



#5 Coolduff

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:02 PM

I think there may be a simpler why of looking at this.  When you fire a gun, the enemy gets an awareness test to detect a hidden person.  In the case of stalker rounds and a stalker bolter, they do not.  So in the above senerio, the SHOT would not prompt an awareness test on the player.  This however does not mean over things won't, like say a suddenly dead body or (if they surive) begin shot.  Basically for there to be no awareness test at all the target would have to die on the first shot and the body would have to go unnoticed.  Also just because you they can't find the player doesn't mean they do not know he is there, there is a man on the deck afterall.  So if they can't see him, they may attempt to find him by some other mean (ie. auspex, psychic powers, or reinforcements) or hide from him (ie. take cover or use smoke).  The key is that firing the bolt itself will not cause an awareness test, but that does not mean the results won't. :)



#6 herichimo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:07 PM

Its even simpler when you follow the rules:

If you are concealed and you fire a weapon you loose concealment.

If you use a silenced weapon enemies can detect the sound of the shot at half distance (usually with a penalty).

If you are using a specialist weapon, like a stalker boltgun, with specialist ammo, like stalker ammo, there is no possibility to detect the shot. That does not mean you don't loose concealment. But you will only be detected by a character who could detect you in the spot you were concealed in anyways, read: looking in your direction. They can't detect the shot, but that doesn't mean they can't detect the shooter.

 

Sooo… If trying for a stealth shot, wait till no one is looking at you and use the time the enemy are groping around suprised to re-conceal yourself. Or just shoot from a distance the enemy wouldn't reasonably see you from (thats what penalties for awareness are for you know). Or use an action juggle to re-conceal the turn you shoot. Inquisitor's Handbook even lists a special concealment action to re-conceal yourself after taking a sniper shot in its expanded skills section.



#7 Strabaisen

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 01:44 PM

okay guys.

thanks for the answears.

I think I can peace something together for my Game. :)

Emperor watch over you.



#8 Korwus

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 06:15 PM

Why you have additional chance to detect the shooter?  "…and produces no muzzle flash".(deatwatch rulebook) "…and you don't hear shots with stalker rounds". Target gain an opportunity to hear movement of finger? Because there is no other effect does occur.

"…however, depending on the situation…" (deatwatch rulebook). But i think those situations are very rare, as an example combat in warp or area  secured by very powerfull motion sensors.



#9 herichimo

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:48 AM

I'm assuming you aren't perfectly fluent in English.

That super flash supressor may prevent muzzle flash, but it does nothing to prevent dust being kicked up, foliage blown around, the streaking rocket exhaust for the bolt round from being seen, or a streak or flash of metal as the round zooms through the air.

Nor does it stop anyone from being able to tell which direction the shot came from (based upon which direction Bob went flying after getting hit).

So you still take yourself out of concealment, there's just no loud boom to attract everyone's attention to your current location.



#10 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:55 AM

herichimo said:

… but it does nothing to prevent dust being kicked up, foliage blown around, the streaking rocket exhaust for the bolt round from being seen, or a streak or flash of metal as the round zooms through the air.

 

A Stalker round does neither of these things.


And this isn't Crysis. You don't magically "decloak" when you fire a shot. Concealed PC + Stalker Bolter + Stalker Rounds = Enemy has to expend actions to find me.

BYE



#11 herichimo

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:58 PM

Funny you saying this H.B.M.C. , since the rulebooks at least infer you loose stealth when you fire (Inquisitor's handbook at least) and may actually state it outright.

 

Also funny that a stalker round, an object out of a barrel with compressed gas, would not cause any disturbances at the barrel. Silencers and flash supressors do not make the escaping gas from a bullet (or even a low power rocket, which if the puff-ignite rediculousness was even correct would - 1: still generate expanding gas at the end of the barrel, and 2: make flash suppressors and silencers useless) completely cease existing. Silencers slow and cool gasses so they make less noise when they exit a barrel. Flash suppressors disperse the gasses so there is less high temperature gasses in one place to cause a visible effect. Gas still shoots out and still affect anything nearby. A flash suppressor nor a silencer makes the bullet invisible either, it might be moving very fast but it is still possible for a glint of light to be seen off the round as it goes (light travels faster than the bullet).

 

I'll also add, you don't "expend actions to find me". Its an opposed perception/awareness to concealment roll. The rules for stalkers state you cannot detect the shot, it says nothing about concealment. When you shoot you end concealment, quite literally because you are no longer using concealment action (you used it to shoot) to remain concealed. So:

Shoot with stalker:
No one hears or detects the shot, unless they are near the guy who gets hit (I'm sure you'd notice your buddy scream, slam to the ground, and/or get his head blown off) but they still don't know where it came from.
Shooter looses concealment, since 1: he shot and 2: he is no longer using concealment action
If no one is looking at the shooter, or is too far away to see him with poor perception, shooter is not seen.
Shooter can then use concealment again next turn, or when possible.



#12 Cryhavok

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:47 AM

Since when is inquisitors handbook relevant to deathwatch? I would rule that my magic scifi bullet of sneakiness fired from my magic scifi gun of sneakiness, while I am sneaking, is not going to allow anyone to see where Im at. Now someone nearby the target might get a logic check to figure out the general direction the shot came from. Then they could try to find me. But there would be no period of me magically decloaking. If there was, stalkertech would have no reason to exist.

That being said, I would still move, were I the sniper. Moving would require a new concealment/stealth check, but if you dont you're gonna die. They way I run it detecting you is run as an extended investigation check, where the target degrees of success are equal to the degrees of success of your concealment. They will eventually find that possition. If your still in it bad for you. If you've moved on they then have to try and track you down or find your new possition.

Sorry for all the misspelling, Im typing on a phone and it is that or autocorrect.


#13 herichimo

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:56 PM

Because they (Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch) are all the same rules system. The careers/specialities, advance tables, wargear, and how you go about getting them are all different, but the core rules systems are all the same. This is the reason they are compatable with each other.

Concealment in Dark Heresy is the same rule as concealment in Deathwatch, they work identically. As for the rule itself, you must use concealment every turn you are being sneaky, otherwise you loose concealment. Along these lines you only test for concealment when another character or entity has a chance to observe you. (Though wise GMs make their players roll the tests even when no-one is around and will keep all results, pass or fail, secret from the players until such time as the players will become aware of their success or failure. Keeps players honest.) You do not test when entering concealment then stay concealed no matter what happens or whatever actions you use until you decide to end it. Concealment requires constant turn-by-turn or every minute or so of effort. You have to take the action every turn.

The rules also make it very clear; when you make an attack against a target, your concealment ends. It does not state you are automatically detected, only that concealment ends. You can fire a shot which gives no indication of its origin (out of hearing sniper, or stalker) and no one in the area will detect you unless they were already capable of detecting you (for instance making an opposed awareness test to see through your concealment)

In fact, the expanded skills section gives a very good guideline about sniping with stealth. After shooting your concealment ends but you can take (if possible) a half action to quickly re-conceal yourself, but anyone trying to find you gets a +20 to awareness. If shooting the stalker system, I would rule that no character not already able to see the shooter would even be able to test to see him. Therefore he gets away with the shot scott free and can use concealment next turn if he wants to hide himself before the guys around the shot guy start looking around for the source of the shot.



#14 Cryhavok

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 06:58 AM

I disagree that DH rules apply to DW, and think you have no leg to stand on in that arguement. But lets not bog this discussion down with that. Lets assume they do for the sake of arguement. I just went and cracked open my copy of inquisitors handbook and read up on concealment. You got a few things wrong. You do not have to spend actions every turn to conceal yourself uless you move. Dont believe me? Read the paragraphs just above and below the one you've been concentrating on. As long as the sniper is not moving they do not keep making checks every turn. They also do not spend a half action every turn to stay concealed. You were right about that book saying you lose concealment, but the half action you spend is to dive back into cover. What if you never left cover to make your shot? If you didnt leave cover then you dont need to get back into it, and dont need to spend that action to retain your concealment. If you are getting out of your cover to make the shot, you should probably consider getting a new career. With the stalker rounds in a stalker boltgun, the enemy doesnt even get a check an awareness check anyway. They have to expend actions to find you. Now you might argue that this would be a house rule, but that would force me to point out that so is using dark heresy rules for deathwatch, so lets skip that arguement.

#15 herichimo

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 05:15 PM

IDH and DW are the same rules systems. Use the same d100 rolling, skills, talents, and tests/test difficulty rules. How in the good green earth can anyone suggest saying they are similar gives a person, "no leg to stand on." Don't say stuff as obviously incorrect as this, otherwise you lead other people to question your intellignece (advice not an insult).

YES you do have to use the concealment action to be concealed.

Being stealthy is not easy. It takes effort. Thats why it is a half action. That is why it requires the cost of a half action every turn you use concealment. You are not turning on a cloaking device. You are sneaking, hunched over, hiding behind things. If your character is not doing these things (i.e. using the action which specifies he is doing these things) then he is NOT concealed. If you stop trying to hide (not using concealment every turn), you are no longer hiding (NOT concealed). How is this difficult?

You cannot use concealment one turn then sprint in the next turn and expect to, in some rediculous crazy way, still be concealed. This violates the common sense rule on many different levels, primarily: "Some actions are just impossible" [sic]. (i.e. attacking and staying concealed)

Again for the sake of clarity. You conceal yourself it costs actions or slowed movement in narrative, but you ONLY have to test when another character COULD possibly detect you, then you roll opposed perception vs. awareness. If hiding something inanimate you use concealment once and take a test then, any character who could detect it rolls against your roll, inaniamte objects are of course different because, well, they're inanimate.

 

Ok skimmed the rest of your massive blob of text. Seriously guy, paragraphs… look into them.

I don't know why you mention "getting out of cover to take a shot" multiple times. When did I, or the handbook, ever say this? I did not, I did not even infer it, nor did the handbook. Let me be specific in the hopes you will finally understand how this works.

1 You are concealed.
2 next turn -You spend a half action to continue remianing concealed this turn. You use the other half action to aim.
3. next turn - You take a half action to shoot.
    a. Since you made an attack you automatically loose your concealment.
       1. What it means is: you've made an attack, that action makes it impossible for you to be concealed until you take an action (do something) to re-conceal yourself. If anyone could normally detect you, or take an awareness test to observe you (without concealment, lets say your really far away) then they do detect you, no opposed concealment tests. You don't move (which would require a movement action), you simply stop being stealthy because you made an attack, thats it. The expanded rules in the handbook are not for "diving back into cover", there is no diving because there was no moving (this is a very obvious premise), attacking is something you cannot do and remain concealed, although you can attack and return to concealment.
        2. If your weapon is loud then enemies may use both visual or audio perception skills to detect you or your attack.
        3. If you are using a weapon whose shot, or your attack, cannot be detected then the enemy may not test audio perception (can't hear what you can't hear) and can only test visual if and only if he was looking in your direction to begin with when you made the attack. i.e. the enemy detects you when you loose concealment, he does not detect the shot.
        4. If you are using a weapon whose attack cannot be detected and no one is looking at your location, or the only enemy is the one you just killed, then no one sees you loose concealmnet, and no one nearby can test to detect the attack. No one sees you.
    b. You now use the other half action you have remaining to re-conceal yourself (scooch over a couple inches, pull down a tree branch, pull your glinty gun out of the sun, etc.).
4. next turn - you use the concealment half-action to continue hiding.

Its really not that hard, I just broke it down to a very very very detailed level in the hopes you will finally understand what is being stated. The only thing you aren't getting compared to "first person shooter" logic is the ability to stay concealed while doing full actions (never the rule, RAW or intent of any of the systems, have no idea where you get this idea from) and can be seen if a sniping character shoots something when everyone is looking in his direction. Just wait a turn until the guy you aren't shooting turns his head, then shoot the other guy, same result.

Anyways, thats enough of this. Point, counterpoint, rebuttal; no point continuing to argue now, unless another actual question is asked I'm going to call this topic quits.



#16 Cryhavok

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 06:19 AM

Lol both systems have alot of differences to them and entirely different scale, focus, and power level. They are different. As to inquisitors handbook, its like you didnt even read the sections you are quoting. In the paragraph just before the sniping section it state plain for everyone to read that if you are not moving you do not need to make another concealment action. Now here is the picture in my head. Person finds a good spot, has a clear view and conceals them. They spend a half action to conceal themselves in this spot. They are now hidden. Then the spend a full round aiming at thier target. They are still concealed because they didn't move. This is according to your precious inquisitors handbook, so you are simply wrong on that count. Yes if the guy got up and ran somewhere else he would need to conceal himself again, but he didnt, so he doesnt. A real life example of this would be hunters setting up a blind and waiting for thier prey.

As to the shot itself, it is like you only read the first sentence of that paragraph. I say this because the second sentence state that you have to spend that action to, and I quote, "dive back into cover." Now it stands to reason that if you are diving back into cover, you must have left cover at some point. Ergo, if you didn't leave cover, you do not need to dive back into it. To continue my previous example, the next round after aiming from his concealed position the sniper makes a called shot from concealment. He does not move out of that concealment. The concealment does not move away. The cover and the concealment are right where he left them… Covering him. Due to this he does not need to re-conceal himself.

Now you say that he does not get detected if he is not in anyone's line of sight. Isn't that what concealment is? The act of concealment is making sure other can not see you. So saying that you lose concealment, but remain undetected if no one can see you is kind of asanine.





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