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Catelyn Stark (LoW) vs Bloodrider


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#1 MrFixit

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:40 AM

I had a game a week ago, where i played against (amongst others) a Tully-Deck with my Targaryen-Deck.

Now Tully player used during a Power Challenge his Catelyn Stark (LoW) to defend - which was my intention all along so i can counter that ability with my Bloodrider - thinking that as the ability would cancel the character abilty Catelyn could not be put in play.

The other players disagreed as they said that she was already in play and i couldn't cancel that. After some discussion I decided to let it go and somehow we resolved the situation and the game continued..

Still i am curious how that situation should have been handled correctly.

I'd appreciate your input :)

 



#2 MrFixit

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:42 AM

As it seems that i was unable to link the 2 cards properly (excuse my noobness) i'll try to repost them as links:

 

www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/GoTCards.html/_/lords-of-winter/catelyn-stark-low

 

www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/GoTCards.html/_/secrets-of-oldtown/mask-of-the-archmaester/bloodrider-mota



#3 ktom

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:54 AM

Well, quite honestly, none of you were right in your reasoning. The ultimate answer, though, is that Bloodrider cannot be used to cancel Catelyn Stark.

Bloodrider cancels character abilities. Character abilities are effects on character cards that are triggered when the card is in play. Since Catelyn's effect is triggered while she is in a player's hand, she counts as a character effect, not a character ability. Bloodrider can no more cancel the effect on a character card that is triggered while that card is in a player's hand than it can cancel an event card.

So you were in correct in that Catelyn's effect does not meet Bloodrider's play restrictions and you could not use it in the first place. (Interestingly enough, this is the same reason Bloodrider #2 cannot cancel Bloodrider #1.) However, your opponents were wrong in that Catelyn is not "already in play" when you would cancel her effect because a cancel would interrupt and stop the resolution of her effect - which is what puts her into play. Their general idea that "you can't cancel something that is already resolved" is true, but at the same time, you cannot resolve something before there is an opportunity to cancel it. Bloodrider isn't a legal cancel for Catelyn, but if you had something that said "cancel a triggered effect," it could absolutely be used against Catelyn, stop her effect from resolving to put her into play, and leave her in your opponent's hand.

Of course, the fact that the cancel would leave her in your opponent's hand should tip you off that it is almost entirely pointless to cancel her effect because her owner could just trigger her effect all over again.



#4 MrFixit

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 05:06 AM

Thanks for the explanation - I think at least once every time we play we find new situations that are not perfectly clear to us - and as the game takes a lot of time anyway we don't always bother to study (it is kind of a study) the rules at that moment but by trying to resolve it afterwards i hope that the game gets clearer with every time :P

I have been reading the rule discussions for a while and i want to thank people who try to make things clearer just like ktom did in so many threads that i read so far..

 

 



#5 Sulpures

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:01 PM


 



Well, quite honestly, none of you were right in your reasoning. The ultimate answer, though, is that Bloodrider cannot be used to cancel Catelyn Stark.


Bloodrider cancels character abilities. Character abilities are effects on character cards that are triggered when the card is in play. Since Catelyn's effect is triggered while she is in a player's hand, she counts as a character effect, not a character ability. Bloodrider can no more cancel the effect on a character card that is triggered while that card is in a player's hand than it can cancel an event card.


So you were in correct in that Catelyn's effect does not meet Bloodrider's play restrictions and you could not use it in the first place. (Interestingly enough, this is the same reason Bloodrider #2 cannot cancel Bloodrider #1.) However, your opponents were wrong in that Catelyn is not "already in play" when you would cancel her effect because a cancel would interrupt and stop the resolution of her effect - which is what puts her into play. Their general idea that "you can't cancel something that is already resolved" is true, but at the same time, you cannot resolve something before there is an opportunity to cancel it. Bloodrider isn't a legal cancel for Catelyn, but if you had something that said "cancel a triggered effect," it could absolutely be used against Catelyn, stop her effect from resolving to put her into play, and leave her in your opponent's hand.


Of course, the fact that the cancel would leave her in your opponent's hand should tip you off that it is almost entirely pointless to cancel her effect because her owner could just trigger her effect all over again.



 


Consider this:


 


1) Action is initiated

After a player initiates an action, the timing

window starts.

For the initiation stage of any player action, a

player must go through the following substeps,

in order. The first step is always revealing the

card or declaring the intent to use an ability.

Then:

a) Determine the cost (to either marshal the

card or pay for the card's effect) or costs (if

A Game of Thrones LCG Timing Structure and Flowcharts

Page 16

multiple costs are necessary for the intended

action).

b) Check play restrictions, including

verification of applicable targets.

c) Apply any penalties to the cost(s). (Any

effects that modify a penalty are applied to that

penalty before it becomes a part of the cost.)

d) Apply any other active modifiers (including

reducers) to the cost(s).

e) Pay the cost(s).

f) Marshal the card, or trigger the effect.

Choose targets (if applicable) and proceed to

step two.

2) Save/cancel responses

blablabla…….

 

e) and f)  that you pay before you trigger. So when triggering bloodrider, he's already in play(as a cost), so his ability should be considered as a character ability, which can be canceled by The Iron Throne or another Bloodrider. 


#6 Amuk

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 07:35 AM

Sulpures said:

�

ktom said:

Well, quite honestly, none of you were right in your reasoning. The ultimate answer, though, is that Bloodrider cannot be used to cancel Catelyn Stark.

Bloodrider cancels character�abilities. Character abilities are effects on character cards that are triggered when the card is�in play. Since Catelyn's effect is triggered while she is in a player's hand, she counts as a character effect, not a character ability. Bloodrider can no more cancel the effect on a character card that is triggered while that card is in a player's hand than it can cancel an event card.

So you were in correct in that Catelyn's effect does not meet Bloodrider's play restrictions and you could not use it in the first place. (Interestingly enough, this is the same reason Bloodrider #2 cannot cancel Bloodrider #1.) However, your opponents were wrong in that Catelyn is not "already in play" when you would cancel her effect because a cancel would interrupt and stop the resolution of her effect - which is what puts her into play. Their general idea that "you can't cancel something that is already resolved" is true, but at the same time, you cannot resolve something before there is an opportunity to cancel it. Bloodrider isn't a legal cancel for Catelyn, but if you had something that said "cancel a triggered effect," it could absolutely be used against Catelyn, stop her effect from resolving to put her into play, and leave her in your opponent's hand.

Of course, the fact that the cancel would leave her in your opponent's hand should tip you off that it is almost entirely pointless to cancel her effect because her owner could just trigger her effect all over again.

�

Consider this:

�

1) Action is initiated
After a player initiates an action, the timing
window starts.
For the initiation stage of any player action, a
player must go through the following substeps,
in order. The first step is always revealing the
card or declaring the intent to use an ability.
Then:
a) Determine the cost (to either marshal the
card or pay for the card's effect) or costs (if
A Game of Thrones LCG Timing Structure and Flowcharts
Page 16
multiple costs are necessary for the intended
action).
b) Check play restrictions, including
verification of applicable targets.
c) Apply any penalties to the cost(s). (Any
effects that modify a penalty are applied to that
penalty before it becomes a part of the cost.)
d) Apply any other active modifiers (including
reducers) to the cost(s).
e) Pay the cost(s).
f) Marshal the card, or trigger the effect.
Choose targets (if applicable) and proceed to
step two.
2) Save/cancel responses
blablabla��.
�
e) and f) �that you pay before you trigger. So when triggering bloodrider, he's already in play(as a cost), so his ability should be considered as a character ability, which can be canceled by The Iron Throne or another Bloodrider.�
That is incorrect. Bloodrider reads: "Response: Kneel 2 influence and put Bloodrider into play from your hand to cancel the effects of a character ability just triggered." Putting him into play is part of the cost of the effect, paid in order to trigger his ability. But the ability triggers from hand, not from play. If his effect is successfully cancelled (by, say, HCiT), he stays in play since it was a cost, but the card reads "…put Bloodrider into play from your hand to cancel…", not "then cancel."

Contrast with Dragon Knight: "Response: After Dragon Knight comes into play, choose 1 character to get -1 STR until the end of the phase (-2 STR instead if it is Summer)."

His Response expressly triggers once he's in play. Thus, it can be cancelled by The Iron Throne or a Bloodrider.

Cordially,

Amuk

 

"Life is a tragedy for those who feel & a comedy for those who think." - Jean de la Bruyère


#7 Sulpures

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:51 PM

Amuk said:

Sulpures said:

�

ktom said:

 

Well, quite honestly, none of you were right in your reasoning. The ultimate answer, though, is that Bloodrider cannot be used to cancel Catelyn Stark.

Bloodrider cancels character�abilities. Character abilities are effects on character cards that are triggered when the card is�in play. Since Catelyn's effect is triggered while she is in a player's hand, she counts as a character effect, not a character ability. Bloodrider can no more cancel the effect on a character card that is triggered while that card is in a player's hand than it can cancel an event card.

So you were in correct in that Catelyn's effect does not meet Bloodrider's play restrictions and you could not use it in the first place. (Interestingly enough, this is the same reason Bloodrider #2 cannot cancel Bloodrider #1.) However, your opponents were wrong in that Catelyn is not "already in play" when you would cancel her effect because a cancel would interrupt and stop the resolution of her effect - which is what puts her into play. Their general idea that "you can't cancel something that is already resolved" is true, but at the same time, you cannot resolve something before there is an opportunity to cancel it. Bloodrider isn't a legal cancel for Catelyn, but if you had something that said "cancel a triggered effect," it could absolutely be used against Catelyn, stop her effect from resolving to put her into play, and leave her in your opponent's hand.

Of course, the fact that the cancel would leave her in your opponent's hand should tip you off that it is almost entirely pointless to cancel her effect because her owner could just trigger her effect all over again.

 

 

�

Consider this:

�

1) Action is initiated
After a player initiates an action, the timing
window starts.
For the initiation stage of any player action, a
player must go through the following substeps,
in order. The first step is always revealing the
card or declaring the intent to use an ability.
Then:
a) Determine the cost (to either marshal the
card or pay for the card's effect) or costs (if
A Game of Thrones LCG Timing Structure and Flowcharts
Page 16
multiple costs are necessary for the intended
action).
b) Check play restrictions, including
verification of applicable targets.
c) Apply any penalties to the cost(s). (Any
effects that modify a penalty are applied to that
penalty before it becomes a part of the cost.)
d) Apply any other active modifiers (including
reducers) to the cost(s).
e) Pay the cost(s).
f) Marshal the card, or trigger the effect.
Choose targets (if applicable) and proceed to
step two.
2) Save/cancel responses
blablabla��.
�
e) and f) �that you pay before you trigger. So when triggering bloodrider, he's already in play(as a cost), so his ability should be considered as a character ability, which can be canceled by The Iron Throne or another Bloodrider.�

That is incorrect. Bloodrider reads: "Response: Kneel 2 influence and put Bloodrider into play from your hand to cancel the effects of a character ability just triggered." Putting him into play is part of the cost of the effect, paid in order to trigger his ability. But the ability triggers from hand, not from play. If his effect is successfully cancelled (by, say, HCiT), he stays in play since it was a cost, but the card reads "…put Bloodrider into play from your hand to cancel…", not "then cancel."

Contrast with Dragon Knight: "Response: After Dragon Knight comes into play, choose 1 character to get -1 STR until the end of the phase (-2 STR instead if it is Summer)."

His Response expressly triggers once he's in play. Thus, it can be cancelled by The Iron Throne or a Bloodrider.

 

Dragon Knight's situation is totally different from Bloodrider. Bloodrider is a special one, since his coming into play is part of his cost. According to FAQ, triggering comes after paying cost( e and f). If you cancel Bloodrider (such as Seasick), he'll still be in play. 

In details, if I'm gonna cancel a character ability with Bloodrider, I'll first kneel 2 influence and put Bloodrider into play(according to e), then tell my opponent I'm gonna cancel an ability(according to f). And at this point, since Bloodrider is already in play, his ability should be considered as a character ability. 

Bloodrider is a special one, different from Dragon Knight(coming into play is not part of the cost) and Catelyn(trigger from hand, no cost).



#8 Bomb

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:47 PM

Blood rider is triggered from out of play and is therefore a triggered effect, not a character ability. The key is where the card effect is when it is triggered, not where the originating card is when it can be canceled.

#9 Amuk

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:42 PM

Bomb said:
Blood rider is triggered from out of play and is therefore a triggered effect, not a character ability. The key is where the card effect is when it is triggered, not where the originating card is when it can be canceled.

Exactly.

Let me try this again: Kneel 2 influence and put Bloodrider into play from your hand to cancel the effects of a character ability just triggered.

Putting Bloodrider into play is part of the cost of the triggered effect. But the triggered effect initiates in your hand. It just happens to be printed on a character card. The fact that that particular card ends up in play as a permanent is irrelevant. You can no more cancel its effect with Iron Throne than you could an event card. If it read ". . . put Bloodrider into play from your hand. Then cancel. . . " rather than just "to cancel" you'd probably have an argument--in that case it would be like Meera and when the "then" effect went off it would be coming from a character in play. But that's not how Bloodrider is written.

The only significance of (e) and (f) here is to clarify that the cost is paid before the effect paid for goes off (which matters when, as previously mentioned, it's cancelled by an effect that can cancel it like HCiT, as the cost is still paid). It does not turn an effect initiated from out-of-play into an in-play effect merely because of the peculiarities of the cost in question.

Cordially,

Amuk

 

"Life is a tragedy for those who feel & a comedy for those who think." - Jean de la Bruyère


#10 Khudzlin

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:59 PM

However, a "then" effect cannot be cancelled (you have to cancel the whole effect).



#11 ktom

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:21 PM

Sulpures said:

In details, if I'm gonna cancel a character ability with Bloodrider, I'll first kneel 2 influence and put Bloodrider into play(according to e), then tell my opponent I'm gonna cancel an ability(according to f). And at this point, since Bloodrider is already in play, his ability should be considered as a character ability. 
Your premise is incorrect. You are assuming that a triggered ability is a triggered effect that is triggered while the card is in play. It is not. The definition from the FAQ is: "A 'triggered ability' is a triggered effect printed on a card already in play." 

So, even if you choose to split hairs here, the fact that the card "triggers" in "f" - after the cost is paid and the card is put into play in "e" - doesn't matter. The triggered effect is not printed on a card that is already in play when you initiate it (Steps "a" - "e" are part of the initiation, you know). The fact that it goes from "out of play" to "in play" as part of initiation (like event cards do, I might add) does not change its character mid-initiation from "triggered effect" to "triggered ability."

When you decide to initiate the effect, it is printed on a card that is not in play. Therefore, it cannot be a "triggered ability."



#12 J_Roel

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:33 PM

Someone (not mentioning any names) has been going around resurrecting old threads ;)


"...and Balerion... his fire was as black as his scales, his wings so vast that whole towns were swallowed up in their shadow when he passed over head."





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