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ranger command squad - can the long tom fire without command points spent.


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#1 caecitas

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 10:48 AM

evening guys.

 

Quick question - the command squad lists the long tom as one of the squads weapons. As such, during a single attack action, could the unit fire it directly? I ask as traditionally you would spend a command point to use said ability, yet it is a weapon listed in the units weapon list.



#2 felkor

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 11:27 AM

caecitas said:

evening guys.

 

Quick question - the command squad lists the long tom as one of the squads weapons. As such, during a single attack action, could the unit fire it directly? I ask as traditionally you would spend a command point to use said ability, yet it is a weapon listed in the units weapon list.

 

You have to use it as is laid out in the platoon rules.  It's listed with the command squad, because the command squad will always have this ability (as there is no way to insert this squad into a different kind of platoon.)



#3 caecitas

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:15 PM

direct fire takes a single attack action - legally you could do it, but we have ruled this isnt the case as it would be beard.



#4 Dcal12

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 04:11 PM

caecitas said:

 

evening guys.

 

Quick question - the command squad lists the long tom as one of the squads weapons. As such, during a single attack action, could the unit fire it directly? I ask as traditionally you would spend a command point to use said ability, yet it is a weapon listed in the units weapon list.

 

 

 



#5 Feldwebel_Francis

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 06:09 PM

 Page 88 states the Fire for Effect special order, which uses the Long Tom weapon profile, may be issued once in the Command Phase.



#6 HuronBH

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 06:53 PM

 I would say that no, it can not be fired directly because no one is the squad is armed with it.  However it is an artillery strike, so if the command squad used both their actions in their turn to use the radio man (or another one) to call in an artillery strike (as a squad using artillery must use a sustained action but does not get the reroll benefit) that they could use it to make an attack action during their activation.  But since it is "off the table" it could only be fired in directly.

 

-jay



#7 Major Mishap

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 08:22 PM

 It's not on the table so cannot fire direct.



#8 fattdex

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 02:35 AM

On the subject of Long Tom, when you use it as the special order, does it still require line of sight to the target from a radio man? My opponent used it to snipe my command squad that was hiding under a building and could not be seen, that did not seem right to me.



#9 Dakkon426

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 02:39 AM

 you still need the observing unit to have los for the long tom.



#10 caecitas

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 04:19 AM

i think generally due to its 25ap cost im comparison with other commands that it cannot ever fire the long tom except when using the order - technically you could fire indirectly using both actions as its off the map (far as i can tell in the rules), but i think thats a RAW moment, where it wasnt expected you could find/make said loophole.

 

long story short its legal under interpritation of the rules, but very likely not intended. I wont sugest people do not allow said duel action sustained artillery.



#11 mariettabrit

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:38 AM

If anyone wants to fire the long tom outside the command phase they are being d*cks :) There is no model in the command squad carrying that weapon, hence it can't be used during their activation. End of Story :)

 



#12 Jowimus

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:44 AM

I don't even think that works by the letter of the rules. No miniature in the command squad is armed with a Long Tom (no number listed in parenthesis next to the weapon title), nor is it a unit on the table that you can give an order. Its merely a statline that is used when you use the Fire for Effect special ability. So IMO, even by teh letter of the rules, it would not be possible to take a Long Tom sustained fire action without using the command squad special ability (which can only be used in the command phase with an order).



#13 caecitas

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:50 AM

generally speaking the book needs a little re-tweeking for its typos. For example the heavy ranger attack squad does not like a number of brackets in its weapons profile, thus are we to presume it has none? No, clearly not, but read as written, thats how it would be.

 

Long story short common sense should always come first, but such issues have to be raised to ensure a clear ruleset.



#14 Jowimus

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 09:02 AM

I would agree that common sense always comes first. But as far as typos go, its pretty clear using the models who carries what in teh command squad and the attack squad though. And as far as I know, none of the models in the "The Boss" squad came equiped with a 220mm howitzer .

Kinda hoping that was a mispack though.



#15 calvinc71

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 03:04 AM

 Follow-up question…  Since the Long Tom is off table, does the command squad need to use the radio man ability to use it?  This came up in a game last night, where the Allies player called in the strike and then used his radioman to give an order to an "out-of-command" squad.

In our quick rifling through the book at the table, it didn't seem to address this directly so we didn't require the radio order…  Story-wise, it seems like it should, but would also have the consequence that if you kill the radio man you end the artillery assault…



#16 felkor

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 03:45 AM

Since the squad with the radioman is receiving the order (gameplay-wise) rather than giving it, there's no reason why that command squad couldn't proceed to give another order to an out-of-range squad in the command phase.



#17 DoomOnYou72

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 03:52 AM

Id say no as "Fire for Effect" is a special order that the command squad issues in the command phase to any unit with the Artillery Strike ability and does not contradict or replace the Radioman ability. You would also have to use the Radioman abiltity to issue the order to an observer squad outside of command radius.

PG 88 "Once per Command phase, the platoon’s Command Section may issue a “Fire for Effect!” Order to one unit with the Artillery Strike ability (which may include itself). The unit receives a Reaction Marker. Then roll a single Combat Die, and on a hit the ordered unit may resolve a 220mm Long Tom attack against up to two target units. Each target unit must be within 6” of each other. The attack may fire indirectly, even though the unit did not take a Sustained Attack action."

In order to stop the Long toms you would either need to wipe out the command squad or kill all the Radiomen in the force (within command radius).



#18 Major Mishap

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:36 AM

 Fire for Effect is a special order given by the platoons commander in the Command Phase and so would follow exactly the same rules as every other command order in that it can only issue orders over 12" one per radioman, and being off table the Long Toms would be over 12" away.



#19 mariettabrit

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:29 AM

Major Mishap said:

 Fire for Effect is a special order given by the platoons commander in the Command Phase and so would follow exactly the same rules as every other command order in that it can only issue orders over 12" one per radioman, and being off table the Long Toms would be over 12" away.

You're issuing the command to a radioman on the board not off board…

the ranger command squad could
 1. issue the command to itself as long as its own radioman is alive (he has the art-strike). The ranger command receive a reaction marker per the rule.
 2. issue the command to another unit with a radio man within 12" - that receiving unit then gets a reaction marker. The ranger command squad is then free to use it's own radioman as normal.
3. issue the command to another unit outside of 12" - that receiving unit gets a reaction marker. The ranger command squad would have used it's own radioman to issue the order.

that's my take on it anyways



#20 Major Mishap

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:49 AM

 True, just issue the order to a unit with a radioman as per normal orders.






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