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#1 Surreal

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:24 AM

 

1. Can I sacrifice Failed Initiate to Initiation. Failed Iniative says Forced Response: After an event card is played , sacrifice Failed Initiate. Is there time frame to use Initiation action before Failed Initiate gets sacrificed? I guess it should work because Initiation action is resolved completely before Responses kicks in.

2. Performance Artist says Disrupt: Sacrifice Performance Artist to cancel the effects of a character or support card ability. Rulebook says "ability is any triggered effect caused by a card already in play." Can I use Performance Artist to cancel Museum Curator comes into play Response?

3. What happens if Things in the Ground puts Unique character in play you already have in play. I guess it just gets discarded because it can't enter play.



#2 Yipe

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:52 AM

I believe I can answer number 3 at least.

Insane characters still retain their title (and sub-title), so you cannot put a second copy of a unique character into play with Things in the Ground (or by any other means).  The card would be discarded.  This is answered best in the FAQ under section 2.9, though it is dealt with elsewhere as well (such as section 1.9)

"Put into Play" is a game mechanic that bypasses all costs (including resource matches) and play restrictions, with the exception of uniqueness.



#3 Surreal

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:52 AM

One more question. FAQ says :

Resolving struggles and determining
success at all three story cards happens
all within the same “gray box” on the
timing flowchart. Thus, no actions or
responses can be triggered between one
story’s resolution and the beginning of
the next story’s resolution. The only
responses players can choose to trigger
are Disrupts, however Forced Responses
that apply to the situation must trigger
automatically.

So if character with toughness has Bite Marks and gets wound by losing combat struggle it would die only after all 3 stories are resolved? That feels a bit weird for me. All whatever responses (not forced) comes after resolving all stories?

EDIT Typos



#4 Yipe

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:22 AM

I'm pretty sure that's correct.  Check page 12 and 13 of the rulebook.  It specifically says and shows when responses can trigger.  From page 12 of the rulebook:

"In particular, during the resolve story step of the story phase, no card effects or actions may be taken until all three stories have been resolved."



#5 Surreal

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:35 AM

Oh man. This is super confusing then. I don't see reason why responses are not usable during story resolution. So you have to just remember what happened during stories and use responses after resolution of all stories? So for example Canopic Jar can't even trigger during stories because it says Responce: Exhaust Canopic Jar to attach a character just destroyed to it. Or it triggers but effect happens when all stories are resolved?



#6 Yipe

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:41 AM

Surreal said:

Oh man. This is super confusing then. I don't see reason why responses are not usable during story resolution. So you have to just remember what happened during stories and use responses after resolution of all stories? So for example Canopic Jar can't even trigger during stories because it says Responce: Exhaust Canopic Jar to attach a character just destroyed to it. Or it triggers but effect happens when all stories are resolved?

 

Actually, Canopic Jar received an errata.  It's second ability is no longer a response but passive, so I believe you can use that part of its ability during story resolution.

And yes, you just have to remember what responses have been triggered and then execute them when the appropriate timing window opens.



#7 Yipe

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:45 AM

Surreal said:

1. Can I sacrifice Failed Initiate to Initiation. Failed Iniative says Forced Response: After an event card is played , sacrifice Failed Initiate. Is there time frame to use Initiation action before Failed Initiate gets sacrificed? I guess it should work because Initiation action is resolved completely before Responses kicks in.

If my understanding of the timing sequence is correct, then you can sacrifice Failed Initiate to Initiation because forced responses (step 5) come after actions are executed (step 3) and cards are removed from play.  In this case that would be Failed Initiate.



#8 Surreal

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:55 AM

Yipe said:

Actually, Canopic Jar received an errata.  It's second ability is no longer a response but passive, so I believe you can use that part of its ability during story resolution.

And yes, you just have to remember what responses have been triggered and then execute them when the appropriate timing window opens.

I was meaning the first ability: Response: Exhaust Canopic Jar to attach a character just destroyed to it. It is just weird the ability saying "attach a character just destroyed to it." and the response happens after all stories are resolved. Doesn't sound a "character just destroyed" when it happens after all stories are resolved if the character died combat struggle of the first story for example.



#9 Yipe

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:36 PM

Ah, I see what you mean.  It does sound strange due to the "just" wording, but that's how it works.

Keep in mind that characters are often destroyed outside of the combat struggle - a fact that seems more and more prevalent these days.  This is probably the reason it has a definite time stamp written into the effect, rather than "until the end of the phase", though that's only speculation on my part.



#10 Surreal

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:53 PM

 What about situation when I control Gatekeeper in a story. Lets say I win a terror struggle by 2 icons but then lose combat struggle and gatekeepr dies. Can I still trigger Gatekeeper ability after stories even that Gatekeeper is dead when stories are over but conditions of response was met? I guess not.



#11 Surreal

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 02:01 AM

Surreal said:

 What about situation when I control Gatekeeper in a story. Lets say I win a terror struggle by 2 icons but then lose combat struggle and gatekeepr dies. Can I still trigger Gatekeeper ability after stories even that Gatekeeper is dead when stories are over but conditions of response was met? I guess not.

Now that I read FAQ more I think this is the case. Also reading rules I think you are not allowed to draw any cards if you control Laboring Gug and opponent plays Short Fuse targeting it. As much as I want to like this game I feel this game has quite messy rule system.



#12 Yipe

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 05:34 AM

Surreal said:

Now that I read FAQ more I think this is the case. Also reading rules I think you are not allowed to draw any cards if you control Laboring Gug and opponent plays Short Fuse targeting it. As much as I want to like this game I feel this game has quite messy rule system.

Actually, that's incorrect.  You draw 1 card per wound that Laboring Gug receives.  In the case of Short Fuse, that would be 7 cards.  Here's the response from Damon when asked this same question regarding Educated Officer and Short Fuse:

"Educated Officer responds to the the card being wounded, so each wound it receives is an instance that it can respond. Since all wounds from a single effect or game state are received simultaneously even if a card is targeted with more wounds than it can survive all those wounds are considered taken, allowing Educated Officer to respond to each."

 



#13 Surreal

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:52 AM

Yipe said:

 

Surreal said:

Now that I read FAQ more I think this is the case. Also reading rules I think you are not allowed to draw any cards if you control Laboring Gug and opponent plays Short Fuse targeting it. As much as I want to like this game I feel this game has quite messy rule system.

 

Actually, that's incorrect.  You draw 1 card per wound that Laboring Gug receives.  In the case of Short Fuse, that would be 7 cards.  Here's the response from Damon when asked this same question regarding Educated Officer and Short Fuse:

"Educated Officer responds to the the card being wounded, so each wound it receives is an instance that it can respond. Since all wounds from a single effect or game state are received simultaneously even if a card is targeted with more wounds than it can survive all those wounds are considered taken, allowing Educated Officer to respond to each."

 

 

 

I understand that answer but I thought it worked different with Laboring Gug. Lets see with the action window:

1. Action is initiated. (Short Fuse in this case)
2. Disrupts
3. Action is executed. (Laboring Gug takes 7 wounds and goes to discard pile)
4. Passive abilities 
5. Forced Responses
6. Responses (Here you can play Response of Laboring Gug but he is already in discard pile and you can't play Responses from there.)
7. End of Action.

FAQ says 

"Some cards respond to leaving play, or
to effects that may cause them to leave
play. Such responses can be triggered
as if the card were still in play."

Slavering Gug ability just says "Response: After Laboring Gug is wounded, draw 1 card." It doesn't say anything about leaving play effect. There are "When something leaves play effects" and I thought they are only effect wording you can trigger as if the card would be still in play. But I am not sure. With Educated Office it is different story because he is in play when Responses are triggered.

---------

2. Performance Artist says Disrupt: Sacrifice Performance Artist to cancel the effects of a character or support card ability. Rulebook says "ability is any triggered effect caused by a card already in play." Can I use Performance Artist to cancel Museum Curator comes into play Response?

 

This question is still unanswered and it is hard one. All comes to this:  "ability is any triggered effect caused by a card already in play."

Lets see with action window again:

1. Action is initiated. (Museum Curator is played)
2. Disrupts
3. Action is executed. (Museum Curator comes to play)
4. Passive abilities
5. Forced Responses 
6. Responses
I. Response is initiated. (Player uses Response on Museum Curator now)
II. Disrupts (Performance Artist is sacrificed now and Museum Curator came to play in 3. step so Response is triggered effect caused by a card already in play and Response gets canceled.)
III. Response is executed.
(Follow steps I through V, etc.)
IV. Passive abilities (now
triggered) are initiated.
V. Forced Responses are
initiated.
7. End of Action.

But then Performance Artist gets more complicated with responses to leaving play because usually card leaves play on 3. step but response happens on 6. so technically card is not in play anymore when response happens so it is not Triggered Ability anymore. It is just Triggered Effect and Performance artist can't disrupt that one. So Performance Artist should work on "come to play effects" but not on "leave from play effects"? I feel CoC rules is like a big sanity check. 



#14 TheProfessor

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 12:25 PM

 Don't forget you can always make an official Rules Question which goes to Damon Stone.  Way down at the bottom of the page is a link for "Rules Questions" (in tiny print all the way at the bottom).

Damon is very good at answering any questions you might have and explaining the answer.



#15 jhaelen

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:27 PM

Surreal said:

It is just Triggered Effect and Performance artist can't disrupt that one.

Huh? I cannot follow your reasoning on this one?!

Of course you can still disrupt it. It's still an effect triggered by a character.

 

Regarding story resolution you're right. It's certainly counter-intuitive if you're new to the game. I'm pretty sure almost everyone plays it wrong initially (unless you've been taught the game by someone who's fit with the rules!).

Still, it's an important piece of the rules to get right. Card effects and costs are balanced to keep in mind that Responses and Actions aren't as powerful as Forced Responses and Disrupts because they're delayed until it might be too late to do any good.



#16 Surreal

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 06:05 AM

jhaelen said:

 

Surreal said:

 

It is just Triggered Effect and Performance artist can't disrupt that one.

 

Huh? I cannot follow your reasoning on this one?!

 

Of course you can still disrupt it. It's still an effect triggered by a character.

 

Regarding story resolution you're right. It's certainly counter-intuitive if you're new to the game. I'm pretty sure almost everyone plays it wrong initially (unless you've been taught the game by someone who's fit with the rules!).

Still, it's an important piece of the rules to get right. Card effects and costs are balanced to keep in mind that Responses and Actions aren't as powerful as Forced Responses and Disrupts because they're delayed until it might be too late to do any good.

 

 

 

It is all because of card texts. Disrupt: Sacrifice Performance Artist to cancel the effects of a character or support card ability.

I guess you agree that Performance Artist can't cancel the Dreamlands Fanatic Response because that response is not ability.  FAQ says: "ability is any triggered effect caused by a card already in play." Dreamlands Fanatic is clearly "not already in play" when that Response triggers. That is my issue with "leave from play triggered effects". Those effects trigger when card is not in play anymore so it shouldn't be triggered ability because ability: "caused by a card already in play".

I just hope Performance Artist would have said Disrupt: Sacrifice Performance Artist to cancel the triggered effect of a character or support card.

 

 



#17 Surreal

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 06:22 AM

 Also I don't understand why Triggered Effect is not same as Triggered Ability. There are only like 4 cards where this matters a little. But rules would be simpler.



#18 jhaelen

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 08:06 PM

Surreal said:

It is all because of card texts. Disrupt: Sacrifice Performance Artist to cancel the effects of a character or support card ability.
Please allow me to bold a different part of the ability:

Disrupt: Sacrifice Performance Artist to cancel the effects of a character or support card ability.

In other words, the ability already does exactly what you want it to do: It cancels the effect of a triggered character or support ability.

Actually, canceling an ability itself is only possible by blanking a card's text box. Otherwise you're always just affecting its effect.



#19 Surreal

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 05:21 AM

jhaelen said:

Surreal said:

It is all because of card texts. Disrupt: Sacrifice Performance Artist to cancel the effects of a character or support card ability.

Please allow me to bold a different part of the ability:

 

Disrupt: Sacrifice Performance Artist to cancel the effects of a character or support card ability.

In other words, the ability already does exactly what you want it to do: It cancels the effect of a triggered character or support ability.

Actually, canceling an ability itself is only possible by blanking a card's text box. Otherwise you're always just affecting its effect.

I might have understood the rules wrong. I think it is totally same if Performance Artist would have said Disrupt: Sacrifice Performance Artist to cancel the effects of a character or support card ability. or Disrupt: Sacrifice Performance Artist to cancel triggered ability of a character or support card.

Here is where I might have confusion. I think there are Triggered Effects and Triggered Abilities and they are not the same. Triggered Ability is always a Triggered Effect but not other way around. A Triggered Ability is any Triggered Effect caused by a card already in play. Triggered Effect is any effect with preceded by the following text in bold: Action, Disrupt, Response, or Forced Response. 

Performance Artist cancels the effects of only Triggered Abilities and not Triggered Effects. And I am not sure if Rampaging Dark Young Triggered Effect is also a Triggered Ability because it triggers when card is out of play?

I am not sure if this discussion is even so important and I actually think CoC action window in detail is not so confusing. 



#20 jhaelen

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:33 AM

Surreal said:

Here is where I might have confusion. I think there are Triggered Effects and Triggered Abilities and they are not the same. Triggered Ability is always a Triggered Effect but not other way around. A Triggered Ability is any Triggered Effect caused by a card already in play. Triggered Effect is any effect with preceded by the following text in bold: Action, Disrupt, Response, or Forced Response. 

I see. I don't think that's correct. Being in or out of play has nothing to do with something being an effect or an ability.

In my understanding 'ability' simply refers to a 'potential'; it's basically what is printed on the card. If an ability is played or triggered it becomes 'active', i.e. it takes 'effect'. The effect ends after it has been completely resolved. I suspect that in the rules and the FAQ both terms are sometimes used interchangably.

The only situation which I used to find confusing involves passive abilities that are not always 'active' like the Chess Prodigy's. This was cleared up after the following section had been added to the FAQ:

Passive effects are ongoing effects that
are not optional, unless otherwise stated.
Passive effects and abilities do not
have a trigger such as Action:, Forced
Response:, Response:, or Disrupt:.
Some passive effects have a specific time
that their effect will initiate, this should
NOT be confused with them being
triggered effects.

I'd also like to add that I've thought of an exception to my statement in my previous post that card abilities cannot be 'canceled' except by blanking the text box: It's the Dreamlands Messenger's passive ability (which takes effect while he's committed): "[…] each player cannot play events or trigger card abilities."

It therefore prevents triggered abilities from taking effect by preventing them from being triggered, rather than only canceling their effects after they've been triggered!

I hope that helps. I don't think I can explain it any better.






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