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Questions about "BQ10 Gathering the Winds"


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#1 cchopman

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 07:58 PM

BQ10 Gathering the Winds
SUPPORT
Forced: When you play a Spell card, put 1 resourcetoken on this card.
Action: Remove resource tokens from this card equal to the printed cost of target Spell card in your discardpile to play it at no cost. Then, sacrifice this card.

 

LE26 Judgement of Loec
Support card
Attachment. Spell.
Attach to a target unit or development.
Attached card is considered to have a blanktext box, loses all power, and becomes adevelopment.

AU17 Flames of the Phoenix
Tactic card
Spell.
Play during your turn.
Action: Return all units in play to theirowner’s hands.


(1) During my opponent's turn, can I use my "BQ10 Gathering the Winds" to play the "LE26 Judgement of Loec"while it is a SUPPORT card?


(2) During my opponent's turn, can I use my "BQ10 Gathering the Winds" to play the "AU17 Flames of the Phoenix" while it says "Play during MY turn"?

Thanks for reply…



#2 Mallumo

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 03:07 AM

1) Yes.

 

2) No.

 

Gathering the Winds doesn't overwrite the "Play during your turn" restriction of Flames of the Phoenix. Judgement of Loec doesn't have such a restriction. While all supports have the build-in restriction that you can only play them from your hand during your capital phase, this is not what you're doing in this case, so no problem.



#3 Teokrata

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 09:08 AM

Mallumo said:

 

1) Yes.

 

2) No.

 

Gathering the Winds doesn't overwrite the "Play during your turn" restriction of Flames of the Phoenix. Judgement of Loec doesn't have such a restriction. While all supports have the build-in restriction that you can only play them from your hand during your capital phase, this is not what you're doing in this case, so no problem.

 

 

 

NO and NO - support card type is restriction himself - You cannot play support cards during opponents turn !!!!!!! even spells…

Mallumo - are You mad ??? - what else HE should do? win in 1st turn becouse some evil rush can beat them till 2nd turn when HE wins? Dark Gods…



#4 Teokrata

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 09:09 AM

 

sorry for dubble post



#5 Skull_person

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 09:54 AM

 Playing Judgement of Loec in opponent's turn… that wolud be someting explosive 



#6 Entropy42

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:54 PM

Teokrata said:

Mallumo said:

 1) Yes.

 2) No.

 Gathering the Winds doesn't overwrite the "Play during your turn" restriction of Flames of the Phoenix. Judgement of Loec doesn't have such a restriction. While all supports have the build-in restriction that you can only play them from your hand during your capital phase, this is not what you're doing in this case, so no problem.

 

 NO and NO - support card type is restriction himself - You cannot play support cards during opponents turn !!!!!!! even spells…

Mallumo - are You mad ??? - what else HE should do? win in 1st turn becouse some evil rush can beat them till 2nd turn when HE wins? Dark Gods…

Mallumo is right.  You can play a support during any action window, as long as the playing of that support is part of resolving an Action.  If you can legally trigger the Action, then you have to resolve it right then.  Gathering the Winds makes it possible to play a support during any action window, as long as you have the tokens.  Usually cards that let you play a card like this will say "put into play", I'm not sure why this one doesn't.  Dance to Loec is a similar concept though, where it takes something you can only do on your turn (playing a development) and says "play" it rather than "put it into play".  This is likely done so that it can trigger "when you play…" effects.



#7 Skull_person

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 06:33 PM

This makes Judgement of Loec very unbalanced card. Gathering the Winds cost 0, Loec cost 1 and basically every time when i play any important unit i will get Judgement of Loec in my face. If i can't use my unit's ability even once, something's wrong.



#8 Teokrata

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 07:10 PM

Entropy42 said:

Teokrata said:

 

Mallumo said:

 1) Yes.

 2) No.

 Gathering the Winds doesn't overwrite the "Play during your turn" restriction of Flames of the Phoenix. Judgement of Loec doesn't have such a restriction. While all supports have the build-in restriction that you can only play them from your hand during your capital phase, this is not what you're doing in this case, so no problem.

 

 NO and NO - support card type is restriction himself - You cannot play support cards during opponents turn !!!!!!! even spells…

Mallumo - are You mad ??? - what else HE should do? win in 1st turn becouse some evil rush can beat them till 2nd turn when HE wins? Dark Gods…

 

 

Mallumo is right.  You can play a support during any action window, as long as the playing of that support is part of resolving an Action.  If you can legally trigger the Action, then you have to resolve it right then.  Gathering the Winds makes it possible to play a support during any action window, as long as you have the tokens.  Usually cards that let you play a card like this will say "put into play", I'm not sure why this one doesn't.  Dance to Loec is a similar concept though, where it takes something you can only do on your turn (playing a development) and says "play" it rather than "put it into play".  This is likely done so that it can trigger "when you play…" effects.

 

sorry but that rulling is just wrong and leads to unbalance… HE is the new EMPIRE now, that will kills the game! I stop playing WHI untill that abusing of HE cards will be regulated but some FAQ, otherwise - the game is dead for me, becouse of inbalance.



#9 Troll

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 07:56 PM

Entropy42 said:

 

Mallumo is right.  You can play a support during any action window, as long as the playing of that support is part of resolving an Action.  If you can legally trigger the Action, then you have to resolve it right then.  Gathering the Winds makes it possible to play a support during any action window, as long as you have the tokens.  Usually cards that let you play a card like this will say "put into play", I'm not sure why this one doesn't.  Dance to Loec is a similar concept though, where it takes something you can only do on your turn (playing a development) and says "play" it rather than "put it into play".  This is likely done so that it can trigger "when you play…" effects.

 

 

Now I don't get it. As you noticed, it says "play" not "put into play" on Gathering. Hence, it does not omit any restrictions, including inability to play support cards in enemy's turn.

Play

“Play” means to play from the hand, paying all costs and following all restrictions.

Gathering the Winds:

"Action: Remove resource tokens from this card equal to the printed cost of a target Spell card in your discard pile to play it at no cost. Then, sacrifice this card.

As rules on cards are superior to those in the manual, by the text of Gathering, "from hand" is omitted, and "paying all costs" too. But there is no word about restrictions and hence these are in power.

Maybe it should read "put into play", I don't know. But right now it does not and IMO it is enough not to allow such move… not mentioning the balance, of course. ;)



#10 Mallumo

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 10:38 PM

First of all, this is a rules questions, not one of balance. Secondly, I don't make the rules, and even if I did, attacking me won't change anything. Thirdly, this isn't at all new, and it's not a ruling, not an interpretation of something that could just as well be interpreted differently. 

 

So let's talk about the rules.

 

From the core rules:

 

"The capital phase is the only phase in which a player is allowed to play unit, support, and quest cards from his hand to his three zones (kingdom, quest, and battlefield). Only the active player may play unit, support, and quest cards from his hand during this phase. In order for a player to play a card from his hand, he must pay for it by […] A player is considered to be taking an action when playing a unit or support card from his hand (or when playing a card face down as a development) during the capital phase. The other player may still take actions (play tactics or trigger card abilities) during this phase, but only the active player is permitted to play unit, support, and quest cards from his hand."

Notice that it's always "… from his hand …", in contrast to:

"Players can take actions during any of the shaded “player action” boxes in the “Detailed Turn Sequence” chart on page 14."

 

 

From the FAQ:

"Playing a unit, support, development, or quest card from hand are actions with restrictions built into them. The restrictions are:

They cannot be played in response to anything.


They must be played during the owner’s Capital Phase."

 

When you are playing Judgement of Loec via Gathering the Winds, you are not playing it from your hand, and you are not playing it as if it were in your hand, like you do in the case of necromancy. Therefore, those restrictions do not apply. You are taking a normal action, in the course of which you get to play a spell, which happens to be a support card in this case. My original explanation stands, as does Entropy's.

 

Does anyone believe that Waiting in Ambush or Gryphon Legionnaire can only be used during your own capital phase? You would have to, by your reasoning.

 

If you don't believe Entropy and me, you will need to bother the devs with a rules question. Balance, or a supposed incredible lack of it because the High Elves can potentially play Judgement during the opponent's turn, is a different topic.

 

 



#11 Entropy42

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 04:03 AM

Mallumo said:

 Does anyone believe that Waiting in Ambush or Gryphon Legionnaire can only be used during your own capital phase? You would have to, by your reasoning.

 

I couldn't think of a good example when I made my post, but I think these 2 illustrate pretty clearly that the Gathering Winds wording allows you to use it on your opponent's turn.  Its very similar wording to Waiting in Ambush, which is clearly intended for you to be able to play it on someone else's turn.

I can't guarantee that this is what the devs had in mind when they wrote Gathering the Winds, so maybe it is a tiny bit stronger than they intended, but I'm pretty confident that we have the rules correct with the current wording.  Its quite likely they didn't even consider the idea that a Spell could be a Support, since that is kind of strange anyway.



#12 Doc9

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 05:46 AM

Skull_person said:

… basically every time when i play any important unit i will get Judgement of Loec in my face. .

 

There are only ever going to be three JoL's in a deck. It really would not be that difficult to work around.



#13 Troll

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:08 AM

 After the Loec is back in the graveyard and Gathering the Winds is in the game, you have another Loec. 4th, and then 5th. With Valorous Mage getting them on hand, it is often extremely difficult to work around it. Especially that you do not usually have too many crucial, big or needed for combo units in a deck.



#14 Doc9

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:30 AM

When does Loec go back inot the graveyard? In our games, HE doesn't really have anything to destroy developments, so the unit/development just stays out and sits there. Also, knowing that these cards work together like this, you have no reason to destroy your own unit/dev so that you are not returning Loec to the graveyard. Just let the unit/dev sit there with Loec on it. Use support destruction to destroy Gathering the Winds. Crush the squishy High Elves! Man Up!



#15 Ellyrik

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 07:35 PM

 Unless you discard JoL on Inflame, I don't see any other good way to have JoL in your discard pile anyway.



#16 slick

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:50 AM

 In all honesty if your deck is having difficulties with the 3rd 4th and 5th loec i think you need to rethink your deck.Anyways there are many other overpowered cards in this game that you need to worry such as beastman incursion,sorceror,mounted marauders and etc.



#17 Ellyrik

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 03:46 AM

slick said:

 In all honesty if your deck is having difficulties with the 3rd 4th and 5th loec i think you need to rethink your deck.Anyways there are many other overpowered cards in this game that you need to worry such as beastman incursion,sorceror,mounted marauders and etc.

I think you can add warhounds in your list ^^



#18 slick

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:25 AM

 Yeah ellyrik that is another card that makes all 2hp units and below worthless.my friend plays destro most of the time so im kinda used to gettin corsaired,hekarti-ed,sacced,hounds,bombed and everything destro can throw at your units.So the only way is to play some unit protection cards or else ill be complainin on the forums all day why my units wont seem to stay in play for more than one turn.



#19 Ellyrik

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 07:15 PM

 Empire resists quite well with Chruch of Sigmar and Iron Discipline



#20 Virgo

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 03:17 AM

Sorry guys, but supports played with Gathering The Winds will be discarded after they are played:

Q: How does the card Gathering the Winds (BQ 10) work? If I use it to play a Spell, when does the Spell resolve and can my opponent cancel it? Can I play more than one Spell with it?
A: The Spell is played when the resolution of the action chain reaches the spot where Gathering the Winds was triggered. The played Spell cannot be canceled or responded to. It will be resolved and discarded.

We have to stick to the rules.






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