Jump to content



Photo

Leaving the Slayer Careers


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 GalaxyUC

GalaxyUC

    Member

  • Members
  • 169 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:04 AM

I have a Trollslayer player, who just got the new Black Fire Pass boxed set. There is some cool stuff in there we'd like to use, but we like the Character. There have been plenty of heroics to go around in this campaign thus far. Is it feasible to walk away from this career? I guess I'm looking for suggestions.



#2 dvang

dvang

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,239 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:44 AM

It really depends. From a true fluff perspective, the answer is "not really".

However, it is potentially possible to bend "realism" a bit to fit your group and the story if you all like the character so much and the GM is willing.

Conceptually, Slayers are dwarfs who have lost their honor, brought shame to his or her family, or broke an important oath. In order to regain their honor, slayers seek death in battle against the strongest of opponents.  They swear an oath to the god Grungi to atone for their sin by death in honorable combat.

So, it is possible to bend this by having some sort of RP event that would somehow expatiate the shame/sin that was originally incurred … without requiring the death of the Slayer. (Or, potentially, the death and rebirth/resurrection of the Slayer PC I suppose).  This RP event would still need to be specific to the dwarf's shame, and be of a great magnitude. 

Or, as I mentioned, you could do the cinematic method and have the Slayer die in combat against a major villain. Give him the whole tunnel of light spiel and have a vision of Grungi accepting his sacrifice and "death" as clearing his shame. Then, bring him back to life, either through the use of magic or divine intervention (Grungi giving the PC another task in the vision, etc).  The difficulty of this method, however, is that will cause some issues with dwarves who know the PC as a Slayer. Could make for some good RP, though, as the PC tries to find a believable way to convince/explain why they're alive.

 



#3 nephtys

nephtys

    Member

  • Members
  • 268 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:47 AM

i think we had that discussion once. and the answer was:

the only way of leaving the slayer career is dying. the character would never be accepted among his kin if he drew back from the "oath" he took after losing his honor.
he may, if the GM grants is, open a different career, like a pit fighter or sorts, but for sure never a dwarf-only career. and i think i would not even allow that.

of course, if you want, there is always a way. the only question is: if the slayer went out to die a glorious death to get his honor back, how can he regain his honor without dying?

maybe he has been frauded and did in fact not commit the crime he did or whatever made him fall, maybe that can turn out somehow. maybe the slayer is charged for killing his own brother in a battle, but in fact, that is not the truth! his brother was slain by a greenskin and he just does not remeber it right?

that is the only way i can think of now



#4 Johannes_Tippmeister

Johannes_Tippmeister

    Member

  • Members
  • 71 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:56 AM

My stance is pretty much a conglomerate of nephtys and dvang's suggestions: I'd have the player come up with an explanation that you could feed into the adventure. If that's done then yes, sure, let him change. Without some story though, he can't. If he lost his honour, he can't drop the oath.

After all, there was a reason why his dwarf decided to take the slayer oath. This is a fairly traumatic occasion for a dwarf. He has failed his clan or his kin in some way that has severed his ties to them. This is a fate worse than death for a dwarf who is, by any applicable standard, quite enthusiastic about legacy.

So maybe, while seeking glory and ultimately death under the slayer oath, he could come across an unforeseen opportunity to make amend and to redeem himself with his clan. A mistake he thought was irreversible is suddenly open to change again, though the window of opportunity closes fast…

On top of my mind, here are two (somewhat generic) seeds:

(1) He thought that his lack of attention while on guard allowed the loathsome ratmen to slip past and murder his kin in their sleep in the supposed safety of their halls. And months later he learns of corruption and treason among his very clan and realizes that he had been used as a scapegoat. Not only does this qualify for a major grudge entry in his book, he even learns that his clan is now facing a greater peril since the corruption was allowed to grow. Time to set some things straight and clear some grudges along the way…

(2) Having been task to protect a relic from his clan with his life, while it was transported to another clan hall, his group was attacked. As the sole survivor, he had to make the long track home to report the loss of such an important piece of identity and honour. Sometime later, in a different corner of the Empire, seeking challenges and death while gloomily trotting along with a group of ragtag adventurers, he suddenly comes across a fresh lead again. The relic has surfaced again! Re-gaining it won't be easy though, in fact it will be ridiculously hard. Coincidentally, those are the odds that slayers cherish…

If his guilt is purged, he could drop his slayer oath and contribute to the glory and reputation of his clan again in other ways.

Well, this is just on top of my head. But I'd say in general that anything goes with careers if your player comes up with a believable story and you make it part of the adventure.
 



#5 New Zombie

New Zombie

    Member

  • Members
  • 470 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:23 PM

GalaxyUC said:

I have a Trollslayer player, who just got the new Black Fire Pass boxed set. There is some cool stuff in there we'd like to use, but we like the Character. There have been plenty of heroics to go around in this campaign thus far. Is it feasible to walk away from this career? I guess I'm looking for suggestions.

have him be a coward and backs out of his oath. have the world react to that. have the players character react to the shame of it. have his colleagues react to the oath breaking. unfortunately most of the careers in that supplement won't work for this approach. i can't see a coward being taken on as a runesmith or engineer etc



#6 RARodger

RARodger

    Member

  • Members
  • 306 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:53 PM

New Zombie said:

GalaxyUC said:

 

I have a Trollslayer player, who just got the new Black Fire Pass boxed set. There is some cool stuff in there we'd like to use, but we like the Character. There have been plenty of heroics to go around in this campaign thus far. Is it feasible to walk away from this career? I guess I'm looking for suggestions.

 

have him be a coward and backs out of his oath. have the world react to that. have the players character react to the shame of it. have his colleagues react to the oath breaking. unfortunately most of the careers in that supplement won't work for this approach. i can't see a coward being taken on as a runesmith or engineer etc

 

Yeah… Slayers are seen as dead to dwarven community (at least according to my Gotrek and Felix books) and there's no legit way out other than death.

That said, if honor isn't all that important to the character and if he's spending his time in human lands he can grow back his hair, die it the natural color and basically take a new name. This has the added benefit of providing some great story options… he has to lie about himself to any dwarf he meets; he could run into people who would know him and have to hide or something…

If it were my game I'd tell the player that if he wants another career he either needs to go the coward route or find himself a heroic death and make a new character, though. I'm not unsympathetic to the problem of discover exciting stuff in new supplements once a game has started, but that's sort of the key point of a Slayer to me, and I'd hope my players would know that going in. (In fact, if I had someone wanting to play a slayer in my game, I'd make sure he knew my goal would be to give him a heroic death, and I would not let up until I do.)



#7 Superchunk

Superchunk

    Member

  • Members
  • 91 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:38 PM

 I think during the storm of chaos the king of the slayer stronghold (can't remember his name) had his son volunteer to take on his shame and take the slayer oath in his father's name. his son ended up dying to a massive chaos hoard's attack and then the slayer king swore another oath to avenge his son's death. So that is kind of an example of a dwarf being relieved of his slayer oath by another of his bloodline, then ending up taking it on again for a different reason.



#8 Glorian Underhill

Glorian Underhill

    Member

  • Members
  • 230 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:40 PM

The Slayer King is Ungrim Ironfist of Karak Kadrin.

 

And as said before. When a dwarf takes the slayer oath he is virtually dwad to his people. His name is put on a stonewall and the grudges against him are striken off. It is some kind of a general clean page before the gods. The only way of leaving the slayer career is death or a higher slayer career. If he takes on another career he has betrayed his slyer oath and is absolutely unacaptabled by his kin. Oathbreaker is the highest shame a dwarf can get.

 

So if your dwarf leaves his slayer path that would be his consequences.

 

On the other hand Felix & Gotrek had also his special cases. Malakai Makaisson is a slayer-engineer. He was an engineer before and then takes the slayer oath. Also Gotrek worked some time as a Nuln Sewer watch. Maybe he has learned something down there in the sewers at this career. So if you want your slayer change his career it could be rulewise done. But in the core the slayer will stay a slayer and must find his doom.

 

For example if he switches to a slayer pirate he can take the boatmen career or something similiar. If he goes into the deeps a ratcatcher could be the career. But he couldn't start something to study or take on an apprenticeship as this wouldn't fit the short stop on the way to his doom.



#9 Sausageman

Sausageman

    Member

  • Members
  • 354 posts

Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:29 AM

Why can't a Dwarf Slayer get their honour back?  Lets say, for example, they single handedly aved a Karak from being over-run by minions of Chaos, saving thousands of Dwarvish lives in the process.  Would the Dwarven nation not be prepared to give them a second chance? 



#10 Ralzar

Ralzar

    Member

  • Members
  • 543 posts

Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:13 AM

Sausageman said:

Why can't a Dwarf Slayer get their honour back?  Lets say, for example, they single handedly aved a Karak from being over-run by minions of Chaos, saving thousands of Dwarvish lives in the process.  Would the Dwarven nation not be prepared to give them a second chance? 

It's not really about the dwarf nation though. It's about the dwarf slayers inflated sense of honour. HE thinks he has done something unforgivable and the only way to redeem himself is through his death. It doesn't matter if everyone else forgives him, he's not going to forgive himself. Other dwarfs will also expect him to act in this way. So even if they forgive him, they're not expecting him to actually accept the forgivenes and give up his oath. Remember, we're talking about dwarfs taking a solmen oath to one of their gods. The oath doesn't say "I will redeem myself by seeking my doom… or by making people think I'm an allrigh bloke." :P

Still though, if a slayer player and the GM can come up with a good story for it that fits his character, it's not undoable.



#11 Spivo

Spivo

    Member

  • Members
  • 524 posts

Posted 02 May 2012 - 05:17 AM

First of all, your game and your world, I know it's been said many times, but it's important to remember :)

But regarding slayers.

As some noted, they don't just become slayer, and then venture out, they take an oath to die as glorious/honorable as possible due to their sins, so whatever they do that doesn't kill them, no matter what! They will never have fulfilled their oath.

This is also part of the crazy thing about Gotrek, he's possibly the best/bravest dwarf in the world, and yet he's the biggest failure!!! He took an oath to die, and has failed.

 

Within the lore, the only way I ever see a dwarf be able to redeem his oath, without dying, would be if what he did wrong was actually false, he was tricked somehow, or mistaken etc…

Example, he swore to protect his little brother in combat, and then his brother fell in combat, and the body was never recovered.

Then later it was discovered he was found prisoner somewhere etc… but still, he did actually fail… so still…



#12 k7e9

k7e9

    Member

  • Members
  • 854 posts

Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:35 AM

Depends how "important" the names of the careers are in your group. I'd allow a slayer to move into the soldier career for example, and continue beeing a slayer from a story perspective. It works well with some careers, others might not work as well. Most careers would be ok if the player has a good reason, fitting the story as to why the slayer would pick up certain skills but the character would still be a slayer forever (until death).



#13 Ralzar

Ralzar

    Member

  • Members
  • 543 posts

Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:46 AM

k7e9 said:

Depends how "important" the names of the careers are in your group. I'd allow a slayer to move into the soldier career for example, and continue beeing a slayer from a story perspective. It works well with some careers, others might not work as well. Most careers would be ok if the player has a good reason, fitting the story as to why the slayer would pick up certain skills but the character would still be a slayer forever (until death).

 

This is a good point. It could be argued that in "Skavenslayer" (the second Gotrek&Felix book) Gotrek entered the Ratcatcher career for a while.



#14 Pedro Lunaris

Pedro Lunaris

    Member

  • Members
  • 466 posts

Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:39 AM

Ralzar said:

k7e9 said:

 

Depends how "important" the names of the careers are in your group. I'd allow a slayer to move into the soldier career for example, and continue beeing a slayer from a story perspective. It works well with some careers, others might not work as well. Most careers would be ok if the player has a good reason, fitting the story as to why the slayer would pick up certain skills but the character would still be a slayer forever (until death).

 

 

 

This is a good point. It could be argued that in "Skavenslayer" (the second Gotrek&Felix book) Gotrek entered the Ratcatcher career for a while.



Yes! He and Felix were working as Sewerjacks, a type of watchmen that works in the sewers. The career was actually released in some second edition book. Most people seems to rule they were using the Ratcatcher career…

 

I agree with k7e9. I don't view a career exaclty as a profession, more like the place a character is occupying inside the society. A Slayer won't ever stop being a Slayer, but he can deal with things in different manners or do more than just trying to get a honorable death. In "Demonslayer", Gotrek and Felix meet a Slayer that was really an Engineer, or even a Pilot - Makaisson, if I'm not mistaken.

You can work the rules and descriptions in ways you have what you are looking for and also don't lose track of the inner coherency of the universe. I guess how you deal with careers as an inner reality is one of the most loose parts of the game, and so completely open to your creativity.



#15 Spivo

Spivo

    Member

  • Members
  • 524 posts

Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:38 PM

I think the problem is, that the player wants to try out careers like Engineer and such, dwarven careers.



#16 dvang

dvang

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,239 posts

Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:40 AM

Careers are not "professions".  They reflect the PCs current outlook and philosophy.  This sort of thing was brought up in the "wizards leaving the wizard career" type threads.

If a Slayer wants to learn skills outside of his career, representing dabbling or working in a different profession, then he can do so by taking the skills as non-career.

By changing his career he is saying "I no longer want to be a Slayer".  You don't forget what you've learned as a slayer, but you no longer view that career (and all it entails) as something you are going to advance in.  If a wizard changes out of the wizard profession, he doesn't forget how to cast spells. However, he is stating that the PC no longer wishes to advance as a wizard. He no longer wishes to continue to learn spells or be associated officially with the College, etc.

"Career" encompasses more than just what a PC's day job is.  It is a reflection of the PC's philosophy and interest, and what they desire to learn and grow in.



#17 Pedro Lunaris

Pedro Lunaris

    Member

  • Members
  • 466 posts

Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:21 AM

dvang said:

Careers are not "professions".  They reflect the PCs current outlook and philosophy.  This sort of thing was brought up in the "wizards leaving the wizard career" type threads.

If a Slayer wants to learn skills outside of his career, representing dabbling or working in a different profession, then he can do so by taking the skills as non-career.

By changing his career he is saying "I no longer want to be a Slayer".  You don't forget what you've learned as a slayer, but you no longer view that career (and all it entails) as something you are going to advance in.  If a wizard changes out of the wizard profession, he doesn't forget how to cast spells. However, he is stating that the PC no longer wishes to advance as a wizard. He no longer wishes to continue to learn spells or be associated officially with the College, etc.

"Career" encompasses more than just what a PC's day job is.  It is a reflection of the PC's philosophy and interest, and what they desire to learn and grow in.

 

dvang, I don't see it that way. I would permit my player's characters to leave a wizard career, for example, to pursuit other positions in the world for a while, other ways to see things things, to be regarded by the world… And I wouldn't consider him to have necessarily gotten out of his Order, he could actually be doing such a thing to complement his studies in ways different than those specific of a wizard. I'm not saying careers are professions. I just imagine more flexible ways to deal with them, and I think that, with good description, all of this can be coherent and fun!



#18 k7e9

k7e9

    Member

  • Members
  • 854 posts

Posted 04 May 2012 - 07:11 AM

Pedro Lunaris said:

dvang, I don't see it that way. I would permit my player's characters to leave a wizard career, for example, to pursuit other positions in the world for a while, other ways to see things things, to be regarded by the world… And I wouldn't consider him to have necessarily gotten out of his Order, he could actually be doing such a thing to complement his studies in ways different than those specific of a wizard. I'm not saying careers are professions. I just imagine more flexible ways to deal with them, and I think that, with good description, all of this can be coherent and fun!

That's exactly how I see it.

I allowed the Shallyan priestess in my group to move into Apothecary without having to "turn her back on the Shallyan faith". But that's what I meant when I said that it depends on how important the names of the careers are, each group has to decide for themselves if career paths can be left while continuing to belong to the said path. Slayers, Wizards and priests are probably the most notable examples of paths that can be viewed as restrictive. However, in my games you have to complete the basic career in the path, then you can move into pretty much any career you want to if you have a good reason as to why your character focuses in another area but still remain part of the path.

For example a Shallyan might move in to Apothecary, Barber Surgeon or Physician and for me that makes perfect sense. A lot of other careers might also fit the character if the player provide a good explanation for it. They may still call themselves priests of Shallya, if they don't want to leave the faith behind and for some reasons face the consequenses of that decision. While in another career I don't allow them to purchase blessings though, since they focus in a different area than studying the divine arts (same goes for wizards and spells of course). But I guess it's up to every group to decide what works best for them.



#19 Pedro Lunaris

Pedro Lunaris

    Member

  • Members
  • 466 posts

Posted 08 May 2012 - 03:13 AM

I'm going as far as allowing my players to spend advances in careers they are actually not in during playtime, if they can afford the advances to "change" to that career (what Reiklanders can turn to 0) and if the career they are spending advances as "off-game careers" express some field of knowledge and society role in which they could be perceived as being.

For example, there's a Thug in my group and the player wanted to raise his Willpower (which was 2). He is a Thug-as-written, his way to interact with people is through Intimidation almost always, but he is in a group of Swords For Hire, and they were acting as hired professionals for Baron Aschaffenberg through An Eye for An Eye. So I permited him spending those advances to increase his Willpower in the Mercenary Career if he wanted, noting that he would stay more time in the Thug Career if he wanted to complete it.

That's just an option I gave my players, who are not power mongers, and who doesn't have anything of the game to search in their houses. To me it is fun to run such flexibility, allowing the characters to grow in more than one way if their players want to and if everything is translating the story and roleplay as it goes.

Another example is the Grey Apprendice Wizard. Back to Ubersreik they were able to get inside the city just before the gates were closed as an epidemia was spreading inside the walls. The Apprendice was carrying the Chaos Tome which the cult had used to summon a demon during An Eye for An Eye, and wanting to give it for his Order to study he was able to contact the Apothecary who held the entrance to the Grey Tower, the resident wizard being away. The Apothecary was an ex-Apprendice himself, giving up that path but still serving as a helper to the Grey Order.

 

Our Appredice PC, not being able to enter the Grey Tower and wanting to stay as safe from the epidemy as he could, offered to help the Apothecary. The man was overwhelmed from requests made by a lot of physicians, so he accepted, and now I'm giving the opportunity for the player to spend an advance to be able to spend advances inside the Apothecary Career, even if he doesn't use that Career during gameplay.

 

For us this method will permit the characters to translate to their sheets what they are living in the Old World in broader aspects. It will also permit for us players and GM to experiment more of the system. Since I don't have other groups, neither the time to have them, and we are roughly playing just once per month, that's really welcome to us, and I'm enjoying it a lot!



#20 Pedro Lunaris

Pedro Lunaris

    Member

  • Members
  • 466 posts

Posted 08 May 2012 - 03:16 AM

And notice that if a character is to go back to a Career he was into before, he automatically counts that Career as being a perfect match to his own current Career. For a Reiklander Human, that would mean to go back to a Career would always cost 0 advances.

I also rule that an Advanced Career needs at least 1 Advancement to change into for the first time, even for a Reiklander. That is to translate the inner complexities to be in such a path, learning inside this field of knowldge and this role in society - what, if you were already there, would be as easy to get back as to turn into a Basic Career.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS