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Airdropping allied heavy with embarked troops


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#1 battlemechanik

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:29 PM

 Assuming airdrop is intended to use up both actions, in order to prevent you dropping in behind enemy walkers and shooting them in the back in the same turn…

It seems like airdropping a heavy that is carrying troops is a way around that.  Get fireball, spend the 5 ap to airdrop it, start it with gunners + extra bazooka + rosie (or tank busters, etc) embarked in it.  Airdrop 12" away from enemy in its back arc (to one side if necessary), troops disembark and use their other action to shoot. They should be in range even without a move, because they can disembark up to 3" away from the heavy carrying them.  No armor roll due to back arc, no cover because of the ugl.  Should outright kill a medium walker, decent chance of seriously harming a heavy walker.

Lot of points in one place, and walkers already have a disincentive to advance… but it sounds funny at any rate.  Anything in the rules that would prevent that tactic? 



#2 RogueRegault

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:50 PM

I'm pretty sure you couldn't do that, as you can only buy Air Drop for one Unit, and the gunners would be a separate unit.

 

It might be possible to air drop British Paratroopers within a Fireball though.



#3 battlemechanik

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 03:03 AM

 Gunners aren't airdropping, the vehicle they're embarked in is.  Carry capacity rules seem pretty clear that if the transport has a rule like reserved, the troops in it get to start off table as well.

The even funnier thing is, I'm pretty sure you can build a 300 point army that is all air-drop.  2 platoons, one led by joe, the other by one-eye.  The command section (hero) plus the other mandatory section (5 inf 2 minis) fits in the tank, tank gets air drop.  Fill points with a unit of paratroops.

That means you've got nothing on the table for the enemy to shoot at until you're ready… on the plus side, you're always going to win initiative, so the other player is always going to get to play at least one turn :)



#4 felkor

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 03:24 AM

Yeah - I would agree that airdropping a heavy with embarked troops that could exit on the same turn would be legal.

Whether it's overpowering would be a different question.  Although if you had some sort of anti-tank squad inside, and popped them out behind the enemy's heavy walker and one-shotted it to death (or completely crippled it), that would be a pretty big blow to start off the game.



#5 felkor

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 03:25 AM

What's also interesting is that the embark/disembark action is not a movement so it can't be reacted to.

So you air drop just out of 12" range, but could disembark within 12" range and the enemy wouldn't even be allowed to react to it.



#6 mariettabrit

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 03:35 AM

Yeah with the rules as written I'd be ok with this too… maybe not ok with being on the receiving end… but ok with it being legal :)

They might FAQ it at some point to infur the airdrop ability of the carrier to the occupents too, meaning they wouldn't be able to move either on the initial drop… however until they do… :)

 

 



#7 mariettabrit

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:24 AM

So I did this last night in a 350 point game… air dropped punisher with rosie and a BBQ squad inside… was very effective…

 



#8 Dakkon426

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:27 AM

 care to elaborate, id like to know what you opponent did in response and what you did to follow up on the drop?



#9 Jowimus

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:27 AM

mariettabrit said:

So I did this last night in a 350 point game… air dropped punisher with rosie and a BBQ squad inside… was very effective…

 

How was this effective? The only weapon that should be in range is Rosie's Bazooka the turn they disembark.



#10 mariettabrit

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 07:23 AM

I waited for a turn where I lost initiative to drop them so he wouldn't get to act after they appeared on the board.

I dropped them next to an objective (terrain) I needed for the scenario, which was also behind his troops. So now he had to decide what to do about his mechs that had hard hitting weapons to his front / rear.

I also dropped the british para's lead by action jackson at the same time into his deployment zone to challenge for his sniper position which I was 90% sure would also be one of his chosen building objectives. Also he had his Konigsluther in range of a possible attack from the para's when they moved next turn. So now he had my main forces in the front… para's to the direct rear and transporter to the side but still behind his units.

He had to stop his frontal attack and redirect stuff to the side and rear now. On the following turn I won initiative and was able to put 9 wounds on his big mech, destroy his main guns and blind him. The paras also destroyed his heavy recon team too.

His heavy lasers did 6 wounds to the punisher but the BBQ team moved up and destroyed them and held onto the objective easily.

The airdrop would be more immediately effective if using a unit with a longer range than the BBQ but I knew as long as they survived the turn they would wreck havoc and relieve pressure on my other troops.

 



#11 Nivanti

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 07:51 AM

 and the beardy cheese begins !!



#12 Vepr

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:03 AM

I don't know if I would call it beardy or cheese but there is not a lot an axis player is going to be able to do about it because there is no easy or cheap way to bubble wrap units in this game with other units.  This will force axis players to be very defensive any time there is a threat of an air dropped heavy etc.  I imagine this will be a problem for both axis and allies when the SSU come out also.



#13 Craig in NH

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:29 AM

I can't imagine this is what the designers intended when they pointed this ability at 5 points . . . but until we hear from them, it's legal, and so I would really hesitate to pull out terms like Beardy and Cheesy . . . yet

But yeah, if in your area this enters the meta game . . . your games of DUST: Warfare are going to get mighty static mighty quick, as you are constantly forced to deploy in tightly packed, supportive units.

I'll be intrigued by how the Russians play into this, as you say. I'm willing to bet that helicopters can be held in reserve, and even if they can't Air Drop, they'll coming flying on, probably at impressive speed, from any table edge, able to deploy their payload, be it guys or walkers, just as these Alliled guys are popping out of M6s now.

It'll be interesting, but I have to have faith. So far everything that's looked a little wonky on paper has proven fun and balanced in my area (no one's done the air dropping heavy bit yet, though), so I'll just keep playing, hope my local Allied guys keep playing the way we've been playing, and pray.



#14 Jowimus

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 09:15 AM

I guess this puts you right in the Konigsluther's Penetrator special abilities range if you are on his side of the board. Gorillas and Zombies can also tear up an armor 7 vehicle pretty good if they can get within 18" or 12", as their panzer glovers can rip up vehicles pretty decently. These are just a few possible counters.

I doubt that this was their intent and will probably be hit with the erratta stick in a few weeks, but untill then keep those panzer gloves handy my hun friends!



#15 RussWakelin

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 09:45 AM

 I've been doing a lot of air dropping with British paratroopers, and my opponent has now caught on.  That outside 12" rule is really bigger than it looks, and if the enemy deploys spread out enough it can be hard to find a reasonably safe place to land.

Couple that with the shear size of the Heavy and it gets really hard to land behind the enemy.  And the longer you wait in reserve for the 'perfect time to drop' that's a lot of points of your army not on the table shooting.

By the rules players must exchange lists prior to the game, so you'll know if your opponent is heading down this path, if so you need to deploy accordingly.

All that said, my gut tells me that the intent of the rules is that models within the reserve transport should also count as having taken a 'march action' to get on the board, but I agree with RAW (rules as written) they can hop out.

 



#16 Galadhir

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:20 AM

Maybe it would have sense if only infantry could airdrop, still cannot imagine the scale of operation to drop a heavy walker.



#17 Vepr

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:31 AM

Galadhir said:

Maybe it would have sense if only infantry could airdrop, still cannot imagine the scale of operation to drop a heavy walker.

 

They drop the various parts from 20k feet and assemble it on the way down.     

 I do agree though that it would be hard even today to accomplish it with a vehicle that is easily over 70 tons and with those huge dimensions.  Even the US Air Force C-17A Globemast 3 can only carry a total of around 85 tons.  It can drop 3 Bradleys but could not handle one of those walkers.  It would take a truly massive aircraft to drop one of those walkers but that is the fun of fantasy games.  They must be using something like Huges Spruce Goose on steroids. 



#18 DoomOnYou72

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:56 AM

I think that even though this is currently permissable within the rules it was not was intended and will be errata'd. My guess is that it will be limited to infantry units (as per the units definition on pg 23 whih does make the distinction between units and vehiles - only place I found it though). Personnally Im for it as it does make more sense (to me at least) and is more in line with Dust Tactics (which uses the Airlift rule for vehicles not airdrop), which I know is differnent but still provides the basis for Warfare.



#19 superklaus

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:21 AM

I would limit airdrop to infantry and light walkers or other vehicles up to an armor rating of 3.



#20 Gobbo

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:22 AM

 I was chatting with my playtesters about this and so we gave it a go.  It worked just fine with out being too powerful, so I think this might actually stick in the game…

I know the intent was to be able to Airdrop on of the Heavies all along, so I have no problem with them dropping in with a full cabin.

 






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