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Laser Grenadiers


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#1 Vepr

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:48 AM

I am new to the game and I am going to be playing axis.  I bought the tactics set along with a zombies box, laser grenadiers, and the rule book.  I was looking forward to running Blutkruez platoon with zombies and guys using lasers.  The setup just appealed to me and I really like the way they look.  Anyways I have seen some people making vague references to laser grenadiers being unbalanced in a few threads but I could not tell if they meant too powerful for their points or not worth their points.  If they are not that great I can live with it because I like their looks but I don't want to be running around with a units that are broken and have my friends accusing me of cheese after a few games.  I have looked at them in the rule book and they seem decent with their ability to hurt about anything but they do not seem over powering especially at their points cost unless I am missing something.

Thank you.



#2 felkor

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:50 AM

They're definitely not overpowered.  In Dust Tactics, laser grenadiers can keep rerolling as long as they keep rolling hits, which can potentially lead up to massive amounts of damage.  That's not true in Dust Warfare, where they are only allowed to reroll hits once.

Lasers are quite nice, but in Dust Warfare there is plenty to balance them out and no one will accuse you of using cheesy overpowered units.



#3 Vepr

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:54 AM

Thanks I appreciate the response.  I starting to worry and had images of my friends with smirks and raised eyebrows as I set my army out…  



#4 Gobbo

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:06 PM

 Missed that change to the Laser Specail Rule.  Must Read more carefully!!!

 



#5 CSMason26

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:28 PM

 Personally I am so glad they had the change… I remember in Tactics getting torn up by my buddy who got 6 hits in a row decimated my Allied army… it's probably one of the few sour tastes I've had in my mouth with Dust is the raped face I had with his lasers. 



#6 Sami K

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:34 PM

IIRC, the unit had 6 firepower against Armor 2 soldiers, and only the laser-werfer was capable of damaging medium walkers and above.

The laser ability would effectively make that about firepower 9 when you're doing a concentrated attack, less when not. But that's just the average.

It's not very impressive considering the cost of the unit and the competition it has among the other axis units.



#7 Vepr

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 03:51 AM

Sami K said:

IIRC, the unit had 6 firepower against Armor 2 soldiers, and only the laser-werfer was capable of damaging medium walkers and above.

The laser ability would effectively make that about firepower 9 when you're doing a concentrated attack, less when not. But that's just the average.

It's not very impressive considering the cost of the unit and the competition it has among the other axis units.

After playing with them a bit I can see that they are not exactly the most competative choice but I am not going to be playing in tournaments and they are decent enough for friendly play although I know I might be handicapping myself a bit compared to other selections.   They probably just overpriced them a bit which I can live with and they will probably correct it at some point in the future.  I am willing to trade a bit of performance for looks lol.



#8 Sami K

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:30 AM

Overpriced, yes, but rather than bringing the price down, I'd rather see their performance improved. After all, they've got to show how they as a unit are actually better and in what ways compared to, say, Recon Grenadiers - otherwise this "new tech" laser rifle is just a downgrade!



#9 Dakkon426

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:37 AM

 just wait till you start seeing armor 4 inf. Then they will be a bargain.



#10 SGTManuel

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:56 AM

 The ability to hurt Armor 4 infantry and the reroll on hits is what makes them special, also being able to take out light walkers is nice.  What are you fielding and at what AP level if you don't mind me asking?



#11 CSMason26

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:57 AM

Dakkon426 said:

 just wait till you start seeing armor 4 inf. Then they will be a bargain.

Absolutely. They can damage armor 4 which is great, 5 shots on an armor 4 but also don't forget they can hurt up to armor 3 vehicles too so there are some reasons that those 4 points in difference may make Laser Grenadiers well worth it. I plan on buying at least another 2 boxes to bring myself up to 3. They will find a place in a lot of circumstances in which they are slightly better than regular troops. 



#12 felkor

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:06 AM

There's also the possibility of big lucky hits.  A sustained attack against a medium or heavy walker would give a greater than 50% chance of doing 3 damage and a 1/5 chance of hitting for 6 damage (minus armor saves, etc.).  So the possibility is at least there for damaging large walkers, which really isn't there for say, the recon grenadiers, who at best might get 1 point of damage that would probably get absorbed by armor.



#13 Dakkon426

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:15 AM

felkor said:

There's also the possibility of big lucky hits.  A sustained attack against a medium or heavy walker would give a greater than 50% chance of doing 3 damage and a 1/5 chance of hitting for 6 damage (minus armor saves, etc.).  So the possibility is at least there for damaging large walkers, which really isn't there for say, the recon grenadiers, who at best might get 1 point of damage that would probably get absorbed by armor.

Looks like someone is reading the tactics stats. its 1/2 in warfare. Which makes me very sad also hvy lasers are still the epic doom cannons they were in tactics so would say include them if you want a laser army



#14 felkor

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:17 AM

It's just 1/2?  I don't have the stats here with me - assumed they were the still the same.

Crap, the laser grenadiers ARE nerfed!



#15 Vepr

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 04:02 PM

So far just for test games and for fun I have been running at 150 AP Blutkreuz Platoon with the following.

Sturmpioniers command section

Heavy Lasers 1st section

Laser Grenadiers 2nd section

Zombies 3rd section

1-C Light Panzer 1st support

1-C Light Panzer 2nd support

Probably not the most competative list but it is fun and fluffy and more importantly it is what I have at the moment other than Lara and the Heavy Flak guys.  Laser Grenadiers are not terrible but they have a shorter range than most and lose a lot of the punch other units have built in vs heavier vehicles with dedicated anti-tank like panzerfausts and on top of it they cost more points.  If lasers are the axis answer for phasers I think they come up more than a bit short. 

 



#16 simpatikool

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:26 AM

I can see them being part of a larger force (Greater than 150 point battles) However, in a 150 point battles, they just are not rolling enough dice. You have to get them in a position to get a sustained attack, in my opinion.

 

 



#17 felkor

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:03 AM

My wife uses them as her mainstay in Dust Tactics, and found it really frustrating to use them in Dust Warfare and not have them be the power-squad anymore.



#18 Vepr

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:27 AM

felkor said:

My wife uses them as her mainstay in Dust Tactics, and found it really frustrating to use them in Dust Warfare and not have them be the power-squad anymore.

I wonder if FFG had a games workshop moment with laser grenadiers.  "Everyone already owns them and uses them for tactics… we had better make them not so good so they are forced to buy other things they don't already own…"  I think GW has made me more than a bit cynical lol. 

I will keep using them because I like the way they look and I just don't have a bunch of figures to choose from at the moment anyways.  Unless I am missing something though they seem to be about 3 to 4 points too expensive for what they do.



#19 felkor

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:31 AM

I think laser grenadiers still have a place as a cheaper unit that can hit Armor 3 vehicles pretty hard.  And when Armor 4 troops come out, they will also earn their AP.  But for now they are no longer a standard choice for an axis army.  That's fine, but it can be a bit disappointing if you loved the unit in Dust Tactics.



#20 Vepr

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:46 AM

felkor said:

I think laser grenadiers still have a place as a cheaper unit that can hit Armor 3 vehicles pretty hard.  And when Armor 4 troops come out, they will also earn their AP.  But for now they are no longer a standard choice for an axis army.  That's fine, but it can be a bit disappointing if you loved the unit in Dust Tactics.

Yeah right now it seems they are looking for a niche that does not exist yet.  I will happily keep trying to make them work though I can see that they are just not a mainstay unit.






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