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Question on Shotguns


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#1 CosbyPro

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:36 AM

Even the Combat Shotgun seems outclassed by lasguns and autoguns. This doesn't seem incorrect but does anyone have recommendations on to use only shotguns as your primary weapon and still be successful in combat?



#2 macd21

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:00 AM

CosbyPro said:

Even the Combat Shotgun seems outclassed by lasguns and autoguns. This doesn't seem incorrect but does anyone have recommendations on to use only shotguns as your primary weapon and still be successful in combat?

Really? Combat shotguns were very popular with my players for a very long time, only being replaced by better weapons very late in the game. They are perfect for close-up urban combat, where point-blank shots are commonplace, completely slaughtering most opponents.



#3 Chester

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:58 AM

CosbyPro said:

does anyone have recommendations on to use only shotguns as your primary weapon and still be successful in combat?

Usable every round: Acrobatics check to disengage to point blank range as a half action then shoot for full scatter effect. Red dot laser sight (it counts as a single shot despite multiple hits) and point blank give a neat +40 bonus to Ballistic skill to turn into extra hits with scatter - unlike autopistols which suck damagewise and wouldn't gain the point blank bonus or autoguns which are pretty useless once engaged.



#4 Bassemandrh

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 02:37 PM

Get up close and personal to use the Scatter quality. If you have Inquisitors Handbook there may be other and better types of Shotguns you can use aswell. I know there's a specially strong shotgun in Book of judgement if thats available, but ask your gm before using it because it is a beast (1d10+9 dmg).

Also use special ammo to gain more benefits. I cant remember the name, but one kind of ammo grants you the ability to set people on fire which is great, especially against strong enemies with high TB and Armour. I am certain there are more kinds of good ammo so use those aswell.

 



#5 Cymbel

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:09 PM

You can make a point that shotguns ARE one of the best weapons in DH. For the price, availability, sheer number of models, amount of ammo they can fire, etc.

There are shotgun pistols, sawn off shotguns, full auto shotguns, all kinds of specialty models, etc.

For rounds you have....Stun shells, Slugs (which make it 1d10+5 Pen2), special Holy shotgun shells for 10 thrones each, snare shells, Toxic Shot, BOLT SHELLS, Flechette shells, Gas rounds, Napalm covered buckshot, instant flamethrower shells (15m, Primitive, but still FLAME) and then some.

And these are all OFFICIAL. Plus. If your GM has any sense, you can add some IRL shotgun stuff too, like flares, door breachers and a couple others.

Then, you also can't beat scatter at point blank, especially on a semi or full auto shotgun, which can be DEADLY.

 

 



#6 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:39 PM

Incendiary rounds can set people on fire. Let's see a Lasgun do that.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

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#7 WhiteLycan

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 06:21 PM

Can't remember what book, I think either Inquisitor's Handbook or Radical's Handbook, but it has a S/3/6 shotgun. Thing is a beast. Have never been quite sure on the true rules but I myself have always ruled that Scatter applies to each hit individually, so 5 DoS would give you 18 hits (6 shells fired, +2 hits per hit due to 4 DoS). Luckily none of my players have ever picked up one of these shotguns.



#8 Cymbel

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:35 PM

Vanaheim Combat Shotgun, 15 round magazine, 300 thrones, S/3/6 comes with a red dot sight and a retractable bayonet, one of the best higher end Basic SP weapons and a BARGAIN for that price (only outmatched by the ironclaw shotgun in the naval shotgun for pure value per throne)

Shotguns are AMAZING, even without the VERY OP new Arbites one (My Arbites personally won't use it, just because, so absurdly powerful as is). Oh and then there are fun ones like the Execution autopistol (Autopistol with shotgun pistol built in), Hack Shotgun (Cut down double barrel, gives tearing, fires both at once), Shotgun Pistol (Just fun) and those are just a couple IH shotguns. Honestly, you can't beat them as an overall good weapon. I only wish there was a statted out OFFICIAL underslung shotgun you can add on to basic weapons like the Spectre, would add a lot of potential to a LOT of guns.



#9 Darth Smeg

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

WhiteLycan said:

Can't remember what book, I think either Inquisitor's Handbook or Radical's Handbook, but it has a S/3/6 shotgun. Thing is a beast. Have never been quite sure on the true rules but I myself have always ruled that Scatter applies to each hit individually, so 5 DoS would give you 18 hits (6 shells fired, +2 hits per hit due to 4 DoS). Luckily none of my players have ever picked up one of these shotguns.

This was addressed in the errata, and Scatter does not scale like this. That is, you do not get extra scatter hit for every semi/full-auto fire hit. Scatter hits and burst hits are both independently scaled by the DoS from the hitroll.

I quoteth:

The Actions section starting on page 190 should include a
special note concerning combining semi-auto and full-auto fi re
with the Scatter quality, which reads “When fi ring a semi- or fullauto
burst at point blank range with a weapon that has the Scatter
quality, the extra hits for rate of fi re and scatter are worked out
separately and both applied. For example, Horatius Kane fi res
his combat shotgun at Heretic X. Kane is at point-blank range
and fi res a semi-automatic burst. Kane rolls 01 with his modifi ed
Ballistic Skill of 70 (30 BS, +30 for point-blank range, +10 for
fi ring semi-auto) and hits by an amazing six degrees of success. He
gets one hit at 70, one hit for semi-automatic at 50, and a third hit
for semi-auto at 30 (he does not get a fourth hit at 10, because the
combat shotgun’s rate of fi re is 3). He would get additional hits for
scatter at 50, 30 and 10, for a total of 6 hits on Heretic


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#10 borithan

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:04 PM

Bassemandrh said:

Get up close and personal to use the Scatter quality. If you have Inquisitors Handbook there may be other and better types of Shotguns you can use aswell. I know there's a specially strong shotgun in Book of judgement if thats available, but ask your gm before using it because it is a beast (1d10+9 dmg).

Hmm... Yeah. Frankly I would ban that one myself. It makes no sense compared to the description given for it (It says it is big, but has low ammo capacity... then has a very good ammo capacity for a Shotgun. 24 rounds I think), and it really works on the Deathwatch damage scale (which I personally don't regard as being compatible with Dark Heresy). It also outclasses Boltguns (even Space Marine ones) if you just slap some solid rounds into it (rather than the standard shot).

However, yes they are effective. I have seen more than one enemy decapitated by a close range shotgun hit to the head. Only heavy armour (or absurd toughness) really protects against that.

I do have to pipe in for the poor Lasgun: It can indeed set people in fire. A couple of the Energy Criticals do exactly that... though I will except that by that point it usually isn't going to matter that much.



#11 Cymbel

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 11:02 PM

The base lasgun is humble but good, they get some neat late game options like the D'laku Hellgun AKA Full Auto Hellgun Lite.

But back to the Arbites Shotgun, 1d10+9, S/2/- 14 shots, 2 full to reload, I don't get how out it holds more than pretty much all the other shotguns yet hits a LOT harder. If they meant for it to be 4 shots, it probably wouldnt be AS bad, but still a wee bit strong. It is essentially better than the naval shotcannon, while costing and weighing less and not being heavy.



#12 Adeptus-B

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:35 AM

Cymbel said:

But back to the Arbites Shotgun, 1d10+9, S/2/- 14 shots, 2 full to reload, I don't get how out it holds more than pretty much all the other shotguns yet hits a LOT harder. If they meant for it to be 4 shots, it probably wouldnt be AS bad, but still a wee bit strong. It is essentially better than the naval shotcannon, while costing and weighing less and not being heavy.

Yeah, a shotgun roughly equal to an Astartes boltgun is a pretty naked example of 'power creep'. I don't allow them in my campaign: Arbites use standard combat shotguns, with Executioner rounds from Ascention.

-But back to the original question: at low levels, even a pump-action shotgun with standard ammo is pretty powerful. All it is lacking is range; if your campaign is starting out in a typical hive world, you will rarely have line-of-sight for long-range firefights anyway; most of the action will be up close.



#13 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:20 PM

borithan said:

It also outclasses Boltguns (even Space Marine ones) if you just slap some solid rounds into it (rather than the standard shot).


Solid rounds from where exactly?


And a Marine Bolter has a range that's over three times longer, has a greater rate of fire, has a Fire Selector as standard, Pen 5 as standard and tearing. Saying it 'out classes' a Marine Bolter isn't just an exaggeration, it's actually not true.

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The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#14 Cymbel

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:59 PM

On the other hand, a standard human cant really use a marine bolter, while a standard human can use THIS gun. Also, Slugs (solid hunks of metal :P) are in the New RT book and are "Lose scatter, +1 damage, +2 pen"

And for 400 thrones a 14 shot weapon which is 1d10+10 Pen 2 is really nasty. Plus, 1 throne for 20 shotgun rounds, as currently it doesnt use special ammo (Though it should), if it needed expensive rounds like the blackhammer did or held only 4 shots (or both!), then it would be more balanced out, but as of now, it seems just a wee bit.....strong.



#15 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:38 PM

In an RT book.

An RT book.

RT.


This is Dark Heresy. Complaining how the balance of a specific Dark Heresy weapon goes out the window when you add in an ammo type from a different game kinda deflates the argument that it's unbalanced. "It's unbalanced... if I take rules from a different game...". Well, no, really? Who'da thunk it.

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The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#16 borithan

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:58 PM

 

H.B.M.C. said:

 

borithan said:

It also outclasses Boltguns (even Space Marine ones) if you just slap some solid rounds into it (rather than the standard shot).



Solid rounds from where exactly?


And a Marine Bolter has a range that's over three times longer, has a greater rate of fire, has a Fire Selector as standard, Pen 5 as standard and tearing. Saying it 'out classes' a Marine Bolter isn't just an exaggeration, it's actually not true.

Sorry, in this case I am muddling up Deathwatch gear (as this is based on a Deathwatch Gun). In that you can get the Penetrator rounds (from Rites of Battle, I think) which looses scatter, gives +something Pen (4 or something). Given the Shotgun in that retains full-auto in the errata (while the boltgun doesn't) this makes it one of the best basic guns in the game. It does suffer from short range, but as it no longer suffers from the Scatter Armour Bonus at longer ranges it isn't quite as pronounced, and many firefights are at ranges which mean it doesn't suffer too much (obviously things tend to be longer in Deathwatch than in Dark Heresy, but most fights close to 60 metres or less fairly quickly).

 

I actually think that gun (the Space Marine Assault Shotgun) is ok as long as it doesn't get Penetrator Rounds. The problem with armour at long range (and it's lower base Pen anyway) means that it is just poo against armoured enemies at range, and so the unbalancing factor of it retaining full auto while the bolter doesn't it isn't too bad. Damage wise it is ok as it doesn't have Tearing. It just becomes unreasonable with the Penetrator rounds.

Now, I will admit I got the two confused, but I still don't regard the Arbites shotgun as suitable for Dark Heresy (as you and I have already discussed on different forums I regard the Deathwatch damages to be incompatible with Dark Heresy). I also fairly sure there is some way for a shotgun to get some solid round which stops scatter (even excepting the RT books, which I would actually regard as being the most compatible with Dark Heresy). I might be thinking of the Lathe World things though, and those are expensive and rare enough to ignore in most discussions.



#17 H2SO4

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:02 AM

H.B.M.C. said:

 

In an RT book.

An RT book.

RT.


This is Dark Heresy. Complaining how the balance of a specific Dark Heresy weapon goes out the window when you add in an ammo type from a different game kinda deflates the argument that it''s unbalanced. "It''s unbalanced… if I take rules from a different game…". Well, no, really► Who''da thunk it.

BYE

 

What happened to the "systems are compatible"►

DH has Lathe Hyper-Density Penetrators (+2 Pen, -50% range, lose Scatter, gain Tearing, if hit roll +10 Toughness or knocked down (IH p147)), which go beyond RT slugs'' (+1 damage, +2 Pen). And are harder to get, too.

For the astartes shotguns, Rites of Battle has Penetrator rounds (+5 Pen, lose Scatter), Shredder rounds (+1 Pen, gains Tearing, doesn''t lose Scatter) and Slugs (lose Scatter, gain Tearing and Felling (1)).

 

In the end, which gun is best doesn''t matter since the space marines use boltguns for more then simply practical reasons. They use them because of religious beliefs / ideological indoctrination. And for those, reality doesn''t apply.



#18 Cymbel

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:27 AM

H.B.M.C. said:

In an RT book.

An RT book.

RT.


This is Dark Heresy. Complaining how the balance of a specific Dark Heresy weapon goes out the window when you add in an ammo type from a different game kinda deflates the argument that it''s unbalanced. "It''s unbalanced… if I take rules from a different game…". Well, no, really► Who''da thunk it.

BYE

Seriously► I am taking a slug, an item that is popular IRL, has been houseruled MANY times into the game as it is such a logical round to have and we finally have SOME official stats for it. And the gun I am putting it in, is a DARK HERESY weapon. The problem of balance is a DARK HERESY weapon, not a the RT ammo, the RT ammo isn''t unbalanced, the DH weapon is. And it is not like slugs are rare or overpowered in DH or IRL.And for the most part, RT and DH gear is pretty interchangeable. Yes, some stuff is very powerful in RT, but once you get above ''rare'' the average acolyte isn''t going to get it.



#19 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:10 PM

H2SO4 said:

What happened to the "systems are compatible"►

DH has Lathe Hyper-Density Penetrators (+2 Pen, -50% range, lose Scatter, gain Tearing, if hit roll +10 Toughness or knocked down (IH p147)), which go beyond RT slugs'''' (+1 damage, +2 Pen). And are harder to get, too.

For the astartes shotguns, Rites of Battle has Penetrator rounds (+5 Pen, lose Scatter), Shredder rounds (+1 Pen, gains Tearing, doesn''''t lose Scatter) and Slugs (lose Scatter, gain Tearing and Felling (1)).



Oh the games are certainly compatible, but my point was that you cannot complain about the balance of a gun when in order to gain that imbalance you have to take rules from a different game. It''d be like saying that an Astartes Assault Cannon is completely overpowered… when I give it to the mooks in my Dark Heresy game. Well no ****! 

And yeah, I know about the Hyper-Density Penetrators. They''re also quite expensive and bought by the round, which gives them their own internal balance.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#20 borithan

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:58 PM

H.B.M.C. said:



Oh the games are certainly compatible, but my point was that you cannot complain about the balance of a gun when in order to gain that imbalance you have to take rules from a different game. It''''d be like saying that an Astartes Assault Cannon is completely overpowered… when I give it to the mooks in my Dark Heresy game. Well no ****! 

And yeah, I know about the Hyper-Density Penetrators. They''''re also quite expensive and bought by the round, which gives them their own internal balance.

BYE

 

Well, the imbalance of the shotgun on Deathwatch still stands (slap Penetrator rounds in and it is too good). My point about the Dark Heresy Arbites shotgun being more powerful than a bolter was more of an aside. My main point, that it is simply too powerful for a Dark Heresy shotgun, still stands (You quip about the Asssault Cannon is actually relevant, as the shotgun is basically a Deathwatch weapon directly implanted into Dark Heresy).






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