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Fixing Nurgle


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#1 Aryan

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 05:43 AM

I request Fantasy Flight Games to fix current Nurgle after the Horned Rat Expansion. Even though some changes have been made to make him be able to advance dial more easily it is just not enough for him to win. There are plenty of ideas already over other forums like skipping Remove 1 corruption token or errata his cards. Please, support this great game.



#2 Hammerdal

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 05:54 PM

 We decided that our fix to the new expansion set for Nurgle is to just use the old Nurgle cards lol. A little disappointing. Although skipping either the first or second dial advancement thing would be amazing, it's always disappointing with Nurgle when everyone else is picking their first upgrade card and you get to remove 1 corruption token. Yippee



#3 drasher25

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:28 AM

It would certainly be nice to hear FFG chime with their stance on the "Horned rat" version of Nurgle.  Is everyone missing something here, or is there a real balance issue?

 



#4 Aryan

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:07 AM

I hope i don't breake any rules on this forum by putting this link:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/722846/some-numbers-and-stats-on-balance

This is just one of several threads I came across. In each people complain about Nurgle losing each game. People try to use in play their house rules, with better or worse effect, however it would be best to follow official errata. I think one of the biggest issues with Nurgle is that he gets his first upgrade after every other player has already chosen one. It would not be shame for FFG to change this things. I thing they would show that they care about their customers and support their games with passion. I hope they will make this game even better. :)



#5 MR Suplex

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 08:12 PM

My group finally tried a solution I proposed many months back, where you skip Nurgle's second dial tick so that he gets his upgrade on 2 ticks like everyone else.  The first (and only) game we played with this modification made a significant difference and Nurgle was able to win (along with solid play, of course).  Had we played without this modification Nurgle probably would have lost despite having the overall best play in the game, because the upgrades really helped him to seal the win.

We will play test more and see what happens, but so far this seems like a simple fix that brings Nurgle in line with the other powers.  It doesn't make him as powerful as Tzeentch or Khorne, but he at least becomes competitive.  I encourage everyone else to try this out and post your experiences and observations as well.

 

PS I also agree with you in how disappointing it is that FFG has not acknowledged the issues with Nurgle.



#6 Ksdas

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:36 PM

I've noticed the balance issue of expansion for a long time ago…. So our group simply play basic set with horned rat…

The most significant problem of the expansion is that expansion seems only force on how to make up the weakness of the Gods in basic.

They give Krone incredible power to scoring and want Nurgle to compete with him for dial advancing.

But over so much games u will find that Nurgle still need win by score. No need to mention that expansion usually end much earlier than basic set, the length of dial for Nurgle makes winning by dial become a hopeless path….

I believe that shorten Nurgle's dial will make the Nurgle player more comfortable but will not solve the problem of expansion fundamentally.

The critical problem is the "Upgrade card". Due to the shorter game turn than basic, you should give Nurgle five most powerful upgrade cards so that he can really fight against others. (E.g. During battle phase, For cultist being killed, +1 defense to you other cultists in this region. )

The upgrade card in expansion for Nurgle seems OK, but if u really play the game, you will find u need to collect two or three of them, then u are really able to compete with Krone for dialing. (But Krone already won…) Nurgle simply need one Upgrade fight to the end to deal with his long length dial.

For Krone, what not make the card (Once per round during battle phase, you may roll additional 3 dices, provided that you have at least one of your figure can contribute at least one battle dice).

Great demon (If your great demon is not on the board, you may choose on region, remove up to 4 corruption tokens belong to any players to summon great demon for free)

 

 

 

 



#7 TooNu

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:12 AM

I don't understand these "Nurgle are weak" threads. Nurgle do just fine in our 3 player games at home. Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle, Nurgle won. Tzeentch, Skaven and Nurgle, Nurgle won. 2 different players both winning with this supposed weaker god.



#8 Aryan

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:45 AM

Thx for your posts. I will check some ideas in my future plays.

TooNu, you are an exception that have no problems with his plays. However most of the people comply about the balance. It's a shame FFG can't take part in the discussion.



#9 NidoKing

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:02 PM

Nurgle is not automatically weak just because some people are saying he is, trust me. SOME of the people claiming he is have experience. But most are following sheep with 2-3 Horned Rat games under their belts, swearing off the expansion because they played Nurgle a couple times and lost because he no longer has an auto-pilot strategy.

The important thing to note is that there are few truly experienced players in the world. But of those that are, some have claimed Nurgle has done well in their games, but no one listens.



#10 MR Suplex

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:11 PM

TooNu said:

I don't understand these "Nurgle are weak" threads. Nurgle do just fine in our 3 player games at home. Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle, Nurgle won. Tzeentch, Skaven and Nurgle, Nurgle won. 2 different players both winning with this supposed weaker god.

This game is really meant as a 4 or 5 player game.  3 player games are not indicative of play balance, especially if you are leaving out Khorne.

The most experienced CitOW players I have come across are on Board Game Geek's forums and it is pretty well established, both through opinion and actual data of hundreds of games played, that Nurgle is weaker than the other 3 main powers (along with Horned Rat, but that is less of an issue since he is the "extra" power).



#11 MR Suplex

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:19 PM

NidoKing said:

Nurgle is not automatically weak just because some people are saying he is, trust me. SOME of the people claiming he is have experience. But most are following sheep with 2-3 Horned Rat games under their belts, swearing off the expansion because they played Nurgle a couple times and lost because he no longer has an auto-pilot strategy.

The important thing to note is that there are few truly experienced players in the world. But of those that are, some have claimed Nurgle has done well in their games, but no one listens.

And plenty more claim he is too weak.  Data also suggests that he is weaker.  There are plenty of threads on Board Game Geek explaining why, and showing his impotence with actual data.

http://www.boardgame...pansion/general



#12 nunez24carlos

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:38 AM

Why is it everyone says nurgle is weak but I think thats a load of crap always win as nurgle I think the reason people have such hard time winning with nurgle is because he is more of an defensive character as oppose to khorne who is the heavy hitter of the bunch



#13 Prepare for War

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:52 PM

While I'd observe that anecdotal arguments of "Nurgle isn't weak because he often wins with our group" are hopelessly flawed and weak, I'd also note that a lot of the hard data collected at boardgamegeek doesn't meet rigorous standards either.

My criticisms of win data, for example, would note that most player groups found in the base set that Khorne felt overpowered in their first few games, then rapidly decided that he was underpowered. If you look at win data, therefore, there's often a skewing effect from players who submitted data after only 3 or 4 games, reporting that Khorne won 2 or 3 of them.

With the Horned Rat expansion, of course, the majority of players engaging were already relatively experienced with the game, so there was less of a "newbie bias" going on.

Naturally as well, this being the internet, many people may have been submitting data that supported their arguments rather than giving true accounts.

 

For my own part, I have formed a strong impression that the game is very much self balancing with an experienced playgroup, as if there are perceptions that one god has an easier time, playstyle adapts to keep that approach in check.

For example, the Bloodletters upgrade seems almost a no-brainer with the expansion in, and it seems simple for Khorne to romp to victory with it in play, as he can simultaneously pursue dial AND VP without having to compromise one or the other. It also seems as if the Bloodletter upgrade brings in way more points than any single upgrade ought to.

However, after a couple of games where Khorne romped to victory, our playgroup started to adapt. Just as we learnt to deny Khorne getting too many combats in the base set, we began to learn strategies that would play against the Bloodletter-romp-to-victory and incorporated them into our playstyle. Now we seem to have reached a point where Khorne is no better than Slaanesh or Tzeentch, though I admit that even now we can't resist picking Bloodletters as the first upgrade in every game.

At present, we do regard Nurgle as weaker in our games. He seems to be the only player who has almost no chance of a dial victory. He can do a VP victory, but in the current expansion, so can everyone else. He isn't even the best and fastest at gaining points, as far as we can tell. He's no longer the guy who can get lesser demons out most efficiently either (that prize goes to tzeentch with the horrors upgrade now).

However, I don't take this as definitive evidence that nurgle is underpowered.

He feels underpowered, but as yet I'm not sure that we're not missing something.

 

A few thoughts that I've been bouncing around, to improve my Nurgle game:

First off, he seems to be good at "splashing" corruption around the place. I can see that this can help him get Ruiner points and can accelerate the process of game ending on ruined regions / VP, which can only help him.

Second, he seems to be a lot better than he was before at gaining DACs. The fact that he has so many ticks to get to a dial victory means that approach is still out, but I think Nurgle is potentially very good at making sure nobody gets double advances. He can deal make with the players who aren't lined up for the double to help him keep the one who is from getting the double.

Third, the Khorne Bloodletter threat actively discourages players from spreading all over the map. This can benefit Nurgle, as if the other gods are gathered in a few places, Nurgle often has the best chance of dominating those places thanks to his cheaper lesser daemons.

 

I'm not sure any of these things are enough to bring him up to strength, but I'm reluctant to play any house rules until we've played Nurgle out a little more. I think - in fact I'm 80% sure - that Nurgle is too weak with the expansion in, but I'm happy enough that my playgroup tends to recognise that and devote less resources to keeping him in check because of it, and I wonder if there are strategies I haven't yet considered.



#14 Prepare for War

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:57 PM

nunez24carlos said:

Why is it everyone says nurgle is weak but I think thats a load of crap always win as nurgle I think the reason people have such hard time winning with nurgle is because he is more of an defensive character as oppose to khorne who is the heavy hitter of the bunch

 

Incidentally, I think regarding any god as inherently defensive or aggressive is a mistake. Ultimately EVERY player needs to be fully aware of how each other player us approaching victory, and simultaneously excecuting board control and preventing others from exercising board control over him.

To think of Nurgle as defensive is to deny his greatest asset - 1 cost Plaguebearers, that let you create potential casualties for a single power point, and which let you aggressively control domination of regions.

To me CITOW is a game of balancing acts, efficient economy and calculated gambles. Which is why it is so awesome.



#15 NidoKing

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:29 AM

And plenty more claim he is too weak.  Data also suggests that he is weaker.  There are plenty of threads on Board Game Geek explaining why, and showing his impotence with actual data.

http://www.boardgame...pansion/general

 

I'm perfectly aware of the discussions on board game geek. The player I've seen there who is claiming the most Horned Rat expansion games (50+), ICaenus,  has reported that Nurgle has been competitive. I'm much more interested in the win stats of someone who's played 50+ or 100+ games than "mass statistics" which poll 100 different incompetent newbies on their first game, or theory-craft from people who are overlooking as much data as they're referencing

 

Most BoardGameGeek players have played the expansion less than 5 times and are probably trash players.


Edited by NidoKing, 19 January 2014 - 12:15 AM.


#16 Prepare for War

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 09:48 AM

 

And plenty more claim he is too weak.  Data also suggests that he is weaker.  There are plenty of threads on Board Game Geek explaining why, and showing his impotence with actual data.

http://www.boardgame...pansion/general

 

I'm perfectly aware of the discussions on board game geek. The player I've seen there who is claiming the most Horned Rat expansion games (50+), ICaenus,  has reported that Nurgle has been competitive. I'm much more interested in the win stats of someone who's played 50+ or 100+ games than "mass statistics" which poll 100 different incompetent newbies on their first game, or theory-craft from people who are overlooking as much data as they're referencing

 

Most BoardGameGeek players have played the expansion less than 5 times and are probably trash players.

 

 

I can happily state that I've played exactly 21 games of CiToW with the expansion in, as our group keeps the score tally. In those games, Nurgle has won consistently below average, though this is confounded by player bias: I've won just under half of the games played, and if we're free-picking, I rarely pick Nurgle. We've recently migrated to random gods every time though, so that has changed things a little.

 

My personal Nurgle record is three games played as him with the expansion, the most recent two of which using the house rule of a bonus dial advance on the first time he turns his dial. I've won with him only once, and that was a close run thing, even with the house rule in place. In contrast, when I've won with Khorne or Tzeentch I've often done so by a wide margin.

 

From experience I'd say Nurgle with expansion suffers a few key weaknesses:

 

1) He only has one feasible route to victory, whereas the other three gods can go dial or VP. Having said that, we are increasingly finding that Khorne is very much a points player with the expansion in.

2) His cards aren't as good as the other gods. There's some sweet plays he can make with regards to corruption counters turning up unexpectedly, but generally speaking he has nothing of the power level of Festival of Sinew, Glean or Hate. Generally speaking, a great card is one that has good economy, and which interacts with movement/summoning in some controlling fashion.

3) He doesn't have the drawing power of Tzeentch or Khorne, though he's on a par with Slaanesh.

4) He doesn't have quite as good upgrades as some Gods: Bloodletters and Horrors in particular are hard to equal.

 

On the other hand:

 

1) He has the most cost efficient lesser demons, and gains initiative advantage from that. This is far and away his biggest advantage, as being able to spend ONE point rather than two offers unparalleled flexibility, and offers the same board control (read: cultist killing power) for half the price Tzeentch, Slaanesh or the Horned Rat pay.

2) He can wrack up dial advance counters to equal the leader quite often, thanks to a combination of cheap board control, decent number of cultists, relatively easily met dial advance condition and cards that splash corruption about).

3) Its very hard to stop him placing corruption, one way or the other.

4) He doesn't rely on old world tokens for his dial advance condition.

5) He has a nice place in the player order - after Khorne, so he knows where the killing zones are, but before everyone else, so he can collude with Khorne to occupy both card slots, grab slots early, etc.

6) He has a nice low threat rating, so often controls Old World cards.

 

All in all, I'd say he's pretty closely balanced with the other gods, but just marginally weaker. With the house rule of extra advance on first dial turn, he's sufficiently competitive that the game works well, and the player playing him doesn't feel gimped. He's definitely the best at corruption and ruination, but not quite so much better at this that it compensates for his weakness at dial victories. He gets better the more experienced your playgroup gets, as a more experienced playgroup becomes more adept at making double-advance turns a rarity for any player, and this favours the VP game.


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#17 NidoKing

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:39 AM

Good post. I've played similar times as you (25+), and my current opinion is that Nurgle is marginally weaker in 5 player games but competitive (he's won a good ratio of our games), and that Tzeentch is marginally stronger.

 

But yes, your weakness #1 (not having dial as a viable victory) does not really matter; I think in an experienced group point victories are far, far more likely for all Gods, so inability to win by dial doesn't really matter.


Edited by NidoKing, 31 January 2014 - 05:39 AM.


#18 vandimar77

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 05:37 AM

When I bought Chaos in the Old World, I purchased the Horned Rat expansion at the same time, and have never in fact used the original power or upgrade cards; instead going straight for the cards included with the expansion pack. In my experience - which is probably playing about thirty or so games (I certainly feel that I have got my money's worth with CitOW) - I have found no particular power to be under or overpowered. All do require a very specific strategy to play well of course. I think that it is fair to say that Nurgle is not going to win by dial advancement; but then I see very few games won that way anyhow, and when they are it's nearly always by Khorne. What Nurgle can do is spread corruption tokens all across the board very quickly, and get involved in the ruination of areas all over the map. And that means VPs a plenty. If I was playing Nurgle I wouldn't expect to be able to win any other way really. The ability to turn other player's corruption tokens into your own should probably not be overlooked either. I'm really not sure where this problem with Nurgle being weak comes from. Perhaps it is because he plays differently in the basic game without the Horned Rat?



#19 Prepare for War

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 07:53 AM

Good post. I've played similar times as you (25+), and my current opinion is that Nurgle is marginally weaker in 5 player games but competitive (he's won a good ratio of our games), and that Tzeentch is marginally stronger.

 

But yes, your weakness #1 (not having dial as a viable victory) does not really matter; I think in an experienced group point victories are far, far more likely for all Gods, so inability to win by dial doesn't really matter.

 

I'd absolutely agree with your statement that point victories are more common with experienced groups, but thats mostly because its easier to prevent dial victories.

 

This doesn't mean winning by the dial doesn't matter though - rather, its the case that the threat of dial victory forces all sorts of deliberate behaviours by players in the game to prevent this happening. As Nurgle has a hard time exercising this threat, his relative board control is reduced.

 

Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Khorne all (with the expansion in) tend to present threat along two angles for at least the first two to three turns of the game, and forcing your opposition to work to limit your dial advancement limits their options.

 

I'd also note that the length of Nurgle's dial is problematic because it takes one extra dial turn before he gets his first Upgrade Card. This, even more than the length to victory, is what makes him "dial-weakest" by far.

 

We've moved on a bit since our last post, and hit the magic 50 games. I'm no longer the dominant player, and now our win rates are pretty even as players (save for one guy, who always seems to be one step behind us strategically in this game). Even with a house rule in (first time Nurgle advances his dial, he does so once more for free) we've never seen a Nurgle dial win (though we came very close once) and we've seen slightly lower Nurgle win rates than the other gods. Tzeentch and Khorne are coming out very clearly on top, but this is happily proving self balancing to some degree, as the free-for-all nature of the game means that players will work very hard to deny Khorne even one dial advance counter on the first turn of the game, will always trickery from Tzeentch, and will often manipulate events so that a "safe Nurgle double advance" is preferable to a % chance of a double advance for any other player. The Horned Rat is proving hard to win with as well, as its often clear straight after set up whether he needs to play for points or dial (and predictability is a killer). Slaanesh is hovering in the middle ground, where he has many mediocre cards, subpar daemons, mediocre cultist numbers, a great Old World token to key off (but only two of them in setup) but is balanced by his shorter dial track and by Festival of Sinew, which is one of the best cards in the game for controlling the flow of the game.


Edited by Prepare for War, 10 March 2014 - 07:58 AM.

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