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2 people charging each other


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#1 Darth Smeg

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:48 PM

So there's the typical cinematic samurai showdown, two swordfighters running towards each other preparing to slice and dice.

The RAW seem a little arbitrary on how this will resolve. The run towards each other, both taking alternate Run Actions, until they end up within Charge Range of the acting character, who then get's to go first.

Regardless of Initiative, Agility and Skill, it comes down to "luck".

How is this handled? How SHOULD it be handled?


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#2 Saldre

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:41 PM

I would say... resolve it cinematically? (Sp)

How by the rules are your players? :P 

And do you play with a battle-map? 

 



#3 Zakalwe

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 07:10 PM

I see your problem and this is how I would handle it.

Movement  should be ignored*.  Because the system puts the 'world' into discrete packets of movement one will come into the other's charge range, and will then get charged, which doesn't make any sense as it is kind of simultaneous.

I would say they charge each other, both get the benefits of charging, and either the one with the highest initiative gets to strike first, or do an opposed WS test to see who gets to strike first. 

 

*Obviously if there is a battle going on around them you will need to consider how many rounds they spend running at each other, but this won't affect the two charging one another.



#4 Skeletor

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:18 PM

Zakalwe said:

I see your problem and this is how I would handle it.

Movement  should be ignored*.  Because the system puts the 'world' into discrete packets of movement one will come into the other's charge range, and will then get charged, which doesn't make any sense as it is kind of simultaneous.

I would say they charge each other, both get the benefits of charging, and either the one with the highest initiative gets to strike first, or do an opposed WS test to see who gets to strike first. 

 

*Obviously if there is a battle going on around them you will need to consider how many rounds they spend running at each other, but this won't affect the two charging one another.

This is very close to how I was going to suggest it, and alternatively something like Saldre said.

running with current game mechanics you would have to describe it to the players as the spaghettii western stand off have them take the normal turns and who ever managed to be in range  to make the final charge in and attack. Even though everything is going on in descreet rounds and attacks from charges end at the end of the movement (unlike where normally they pass each other) all of these actions are taking place relative to the pcs in mere moments, so the action can be described as being like the stand off.

 

I think however I favor the making of a new mechanic like Zakalwe said. My only variant to what he mentioned is I'd just make it WS tests (not opposed) because there's always the chance both combatants strike telling blows and they both go down. Also make it so the charge ends them like a step passed each other for dramatic effect  ;)



#5 Phi6891

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:02 PM

I would set the PC's and the NPC's initative to the start of the initative order and have them move and attack simultaneously, so for example I would have them both move into contact with each other, usually half way in between each of them, and then have them make an WS roll to see if they hit and then if they do hit then I would have them roll for damage etc.. Then if no one dies in the first round of combat I would have them keep going at the top of the initative order in till either the PC's or NPC's dies, then they would go back into their original initative order as before. That is what I would do at least, how does that sound?



#6 Darth Smeg

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:28 PM

It sounds like a good place to start, I guess.

We'll encounter issues as we explore this, and plenty of fodder for rules lawyers, and we're moving into House rule territory. Problem is we're trying to resolve simultaneous moves, while the whole ruleset is built to handle sequential moves.

Issues:

Does one of them get to hit "first"? Initiative or opposed Ag roll to decide? Opposed WS perhaps? If one of them kills or disables his opponents with his first strike, does this opponent still get to hit back before he goes down? (ie acting simultaneously?)

Do any of the fighters get to Dodge or Parry their opponents attack? Rules state that Reactions cannot be used on your own turn, but usually your opponents do not get to attack you on your own turn. But now you're both going at the same time. If both blows are delivered simultaneously, it seems a bit of a stretch to both Parry and attack at the same time, so I might say "No". On the other hand, the very cinematic samurai showdown I referred to in the OP usually involves one person striking just a fraction of the second before his opponent, who is then usually beheaded in a most gory fashion and is unable to return violence. If both attackers hit at the same time, and no dodge is allowed, this will likely never happen.


Tarald - The Dark Lord of Smeg

You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on

 

My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#7 Phi6891

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 12:10 PM

Well I would imagine that both the NPC and PC would be making a charge action so they only get the +10% WS. So seeing as I'm having them attack simultaneously I would say no to a Dodge but you could give them a choice of doing a parry instead of a melee attack but then that takes away the whole point of having the face off, so I'm going to say no to the parry too.

 

I asked my friend for advice on this question and he said that the samurai showdown was just no defense in these showdowns and all attack so I'd just give each of them the one attack from the charge and that's it, no extra reactions, no side stepping, etc.; just straight up charge and attack each other. If they survive then I would default to what I said previous.



#8 IdOfEntity

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:23 AM

Phi6891 said:

I asked my friend for advice on this question and he said that the samurai showdown was just no defense in these showdowns and all attack so I'd just give each of them the one attack from the charge and that's it, no extra reactions, no side stepping, etc.; just straight up charge and attack each other. If they survive then I would default to what I said previous.

 

This is assuming that they are only ever engaging in Japanese style swordplay.  That would make sense for two assassins engaging in a charge together, but a guardsman with a bayonet on his lasgun is not going to fight this way. Likewise, a Cleric wielding a warhammer is not going to be practicing Iaijutsu. (or however it's spelled)  What's more, both of those Samurai are choosing not to dodge of parry each other's strikes.  Here's what I would do for any dual-charge situation:

- Both subjects charge their distance to meet.
- The subject with the higher Agility strikes first.  They gain the +10 bonus (or +20 for BC) and execute their attack.
- If the second subject chooses to parry/dodge, they lose the momentum from the charge, and on their subsequent attack lose their charge bonus.
- If the second subject chose not to parry/dodge they retain their charge bonus and may attack as if they had charged.
- The first subject may parry/dodge as a reaction.
- Resolve wounds and critical damage simultaneously.  It is possible at this point that both subjects fall.

The benefit goes to the faster (Agility) fighter because on their attack they automatically get their charge bonus.  The slower subject will have to choose whether to sacrifice their momentum on a parry or risk the strike to retain their bonus.

Example:

Corvus the Moritat Assassin sees Paedrag the Cleric across the battlefield and recognizes him as his mark.  Paedrag also notices Corvus, and decides to engage him to settle the matter of this impudent assassin.  They charge each other to meet in a clash of steel and blood in the center of the battlefield.

Corvus' speed is remarkable, and he uses his momentum in a diving lunge to plant his Mono-Sword in Paedrag's entrails.  He rolls with a +20 (having BC) and lands a hit with one degree of success.  Paedrag turns his warhammer to deflect the blow, and shifts his footing.  He rolls his parry, and with his reaction rolls two degrees of success.  He bats the sword away, and swings his hammer low to clip the assassins shin.  He rolls well on his attack despite having no bonus, and lands a powerful blow to Corvus' kneecap as Corvus made a terrible attempt to parry.  Corvus is down to 0 wounds, and takes 2 critical damage to the leg.  Paedrag has taken no wounds.



#9 Phi6891

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:49 AM

IdOfEntity said:

This is assuming that they are only ever engaging in Japanese style swordplay. 

But that is what Darth Smeg is asking for, he wants the cinematic samurai showdown.

Darth Smeg said:


So there's the typical cinematic samurai showdown, two swordfighters running towards each other preparing to slice and dice.

 

The RAW seem a little arbitrary on how this will resolve. The run towards each other, both taking alternate Run Actions, until they end up within Charge Range of the acting character, who then get's to go first.

Regardless of Initiative, Agility and Skill, it comes down to "luck".

How is this handled? How SHOULD it be handled?

How many cinematic samurai showdowns do you see where they are taking there final charge at each other and they are dodging and parrying each others attacks? I was just trying to fit his idea of that kind of a showdown. Now don't get me wrong I like how you summoned it up:

IdOfEntity said:

Here's what I would do for any dual-charge situation:

- Both subjects charge their distance to meet.
- The subject with the higher Agility strikes first. They gain the +10 bonus (or +20 for BC) and execute their attack.
- If the second subject chooses to parry/dodge, they lose the momentum from the charge, and on their subsequent attack lose their charge bonus.
- If the second subject chose not to parry/dodge they retain their charge bonus and may attack as if they had charged.
- The first subject may parry/dodge as a reaction.
- Resolve wounds and critical damage simultaneously. It is possible at this point that both subjects fall.

The benefit goes to the faster (Agility) fighter because on their attack they automatically get their charge bonus. The slower subject will have to choose whether to sacrifice their momentum on a parry or risk the strike to retain their bonus.

But like

Darth Smeg said:


The RAW seem a little arbitrary on how this will resolve. The run towards each other, both taking alternate Run Actions, until they end up within Charge Range of the acting character, who then get's to go first.

Regardless of Initiative, Agility and Skill, it comes down to "luck".

He didn't want the RAW because they seem arbitrary to him.



#10 IdOfEntity

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:46 PM

Hey, I'm just glad people are as curious about these little scenarios as I am.

Phi6891 said:

But that is what Darth Smeg is asking for, he wants the cinematic samurai showdown. 

 

How many cinematic samurai showdowns do you see where they are taking there final charge at each other and they are dodging and parrying each others attacks? I was just trying to fit his idea of that kind of a showdown. Now don't get me wrong I like how you summoned it up:

I get what you're saying, but the beauty of that little scenario I worked out is that it will work in that "samurai" scene just as well.  Both the player and the NPC would simply choose not to parry/dodge.  Why couldn't the player at the last second choose to parry/dodge?  They may decide at the last moment to change tactics, and the home-brew rules I provided will work still with two blokes wielding spears or throwing fists.  The GM would control the cinematics with good storytelling, but the rules hold up either way.  I'd rather craft home-brew rules that don't limit the player's choices too much.

Dodge can also be described as something other than jumping and tumbling.  It could be a simple sidestep or turn of the torso to avoid an opponents strike.  Subtle movements that waste an opponents energy could be considered a 'dodge'.

Phi6891 said:

But like

Darth Smeg said:

 

He didn't want the RAW because they seem arbitrary to him.

Sorry, I'm a bit new to some of the acronyms.  What's RAW?

The reason I set it up the way I did is because of this:

1) One of the two will always initiate with the first strike.  Only in staged duels will you see two opponents strike at almost the same instant, and you can usually see that the faster one begins their movements first.  It'd make sense to just handle that with Agility scores.

2) A faster opponent may still be the inferior swordsman, so even though one might be slower than their opponent they may have a better chance to parry and strike.  Thus Weapon Skill still is the most important feature in the fight.  The superior swordsman could choose to react quickly depending on his opponents stance and telegraphed movements, and a quick parry followed by a cutting stroke are not a terrible idea.

 



#11 Phi6891

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 02:39 PM

IdOfEntity said:

 

 
Sorry, I'm a bit new to some of the acronyms.  What's RAW?

RAW = rules as written

I like the rules that you home brewed but I'm just imagining that they are moving so fast and everything is happening in a span of only 5 seconds, because one round equals 5 seconds so I'm seeing it as they don't have the dodges or parries to aid them in this very quick and deadly head long charge into one another. Because they are using a full action to attack and I'm still seeing them going just about simultaneously so they would be doing their actions on the same turn and wouldn't get any reactions action for fighting someone that is acting with them at the same moment in time.






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