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Red Die (Wildcard) and Spell cards


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#1 MaddockKrug

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:13 AM

Hi there,

within the rulebook on the pages 9 and 10 the spells are explained. As soon as one plays a spell on his active turn, he may put a die he rolled during his current adventure on this cast spell. Since there is no telling you otherwise you may put the red die with the Wildcard-symbol on such a spell, when you play a unique item allowing you to put the red die into your dice-pool.

The cast spell is part of the play area (pg 9).
A die remains on the spell card until it is used to complete a task (pg. 9).
The die remains on the spell card until it is being used - even on a different player's turn. (pg 10)

Just for clarification:

This would mean that player A uses a unique item to roll the red die; player A then plays a spell in order to put the Wildcard die result on this spell. And any player B, C, D or even A in another, later turn may use this spell-bound red die with the Wildcard as a joker, right?

Or does this rule about the red die interfere:
In any event, the die is removed from the dice pool at the end of the active player's turn. (pg 9)

All the best!
Mad


For GM: Mad's Adventure, Adventure Hooks, NPCs, and Locations - same at RPGGEEK

 

SW, to me, is a Spaghetti Western with space ships for horses. No matter what you do it causes a problem.  You just might save the day.  Crazy heroics and adventure!

 


#2 xris

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:10 AM

MaddockKrug said:

This would mean that player A uses a unique item to roll the red die; player A then plays a spell in order to put the Wildcard die result on this spell. And any player B, C, D or even A in another, later turn may use this spell-bound red die with the Wildcard as a joker, right?

That is correct.

MaddockKrug said:

Or does this rule about the red die interfere:
In any event, the die is removed from the dice pool at the end of the active player's turn. (pg 9)

The die placed on the Spell is no longer part of your dice pool, so that doesn't apply.

 

In addition, don't forget (as stated in the FAQ).
"Before any roll, a player may remove some or all of
the dice held on spells in order to roll them.
"

So a die could be removed from the Spell and added to your dice pool BUT, if it is the yellow or red die then you will need to "pay" for it by discarding the appropriate Common or Unique Item.

If it was a green die on the Spell, then you can just remove it and add it to your dice pool.

Of course, as your example was a Joker, I can't see any reason why you would want to do this :) but in general this is true.
 



#3 MaddockKrug

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:27 PM

Hello.

Thank you, xris, for the clarification. This helps me a lot.

As you may have noticed: The same question I posted on the BGG forums; and there the discussion about my question took an interesting turn.

It is about what you quote from the FAQs and the conclusions you - as I understand it - drew of it.

 

xris said:

MaddockKrug said:

This would mean that player A uses a unique item to roll the red die; player A then plays a spell in order to put the Wildcard die result on this spell. And any player B, C, D or even A in another, later turn may use this spell-bound red die with the Wildcard as a joker, right?

 

That is correct.

 

...

In addition, don't forget (as stated in the FAQ).
"Before any roll, a player may remove some or all of
the dice held on spells in order to roll them.
"

So a die could be removed from the Spell and added to your dice pool BUT, if it is the yellow or red die then you will need to "pay" for it by discarding the appropriate Common or Unique Item.

 

A different BGG forum member mentions that you are not entitled to play a Unique or Common Item, if you take the spell-bound die from the Spell Card in order to roll it. This is kind of interesting, because this is quite the opposite of what you explain.

That is why I tried to understand both ways of ruling, and I came up with two, in my humble opinion, valid ways to read the rules - both based on the rules of the rulebook as well as the official FAQ. So this is what I answered on the BGG forum as well:

-------------------------------

1. And the devil's detail is a tiny word on pg 6 of the rules being used twice:

Quote:
The yellow die is typically rolled after a player spends a Common Item.
...
The red die is typically rolled after a player spends a Unique Item.

"Typically" implies that there is an exception. And the exception is the Spell Card holding a die. And as it is written on pg 10 of the rulebook any active player may use the die result on the Spell Card in order to complete a task. That is for sure.
The rules-clarification on pg 2 of the FAQ tells you that the active player may also take the die from the Spell Card in order to roll the die instead of using its result. There is no mentioning, though, that the active gamer needs to spend another Common or Unique Item in order to roll the die.
I did not realize this "complexity" within these game-mechanics. This surely emphasizes the "cooperative game" a lot. While one Investigator focuses on "light" adventures in order to grab all the items and then to prepare dice by casting spells and holding dice, other Investigators may focus on the Elder Sign adventure to beat the crap out of the GOO ...
That makes this rule-combo quite powerful. Is this really what the game-designer wished to achieve? And here one should not forget: As soon as dice get locked by adventures or monsters, those preparations are wasted; so there is an ingame-mechanism to keep this under control.

2. Still I think it is valid to restrict the rules slightly by explaining it differently: In order to re-roll a once spell-bound die you would need to use the proper item as well, because you would have to make the die part of your dice-pool before re-rolling it. The difference to the usage of the die-result already in play in order to complete an adventure is simply this: The once rolled and on the Spell card held die never becomes part of anyone's dice-pool after it was held on the Spell Card; it was once the time it was rolled, then split from it when placed on a spell, and now it only needs to fit into the right place at the right time - after any die-role and in order to finally resolve a task.

Wow. I am impressed by this ambiguity of the rules actually.

-------------------------------

Now, which of those is the more likely proper understanding of the rules?

All the best!

Mad


For GM: Mad's Adventure, Adventure Hooks, NPCs, and Locations - same at RPGGEEK

 

SW, to me, is a Spaghetti Western with space ships for horses. No matter what you do it causes a problem.  You just might save the day.  Crazy heroics and adventure!

 


#4 xris

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:32 AM

I replied to the BGG thread but here is a copy of the reply for those here that might be interested.

As the rules stand, it is not clear how this should be resolved.

Both methods have merit, both methods can be "justified" thematically one way or the other.

In my previous post
So a die could be removed from the Spell and added to your dice pool but, if it is the yellow or red die then you will need to "pay" for it by discarding the appropriate Common or Unique Item.
I should have added that there is an alternate interpretation and that was when removing a yellow or red dice from a Spell it doesn't need to be "paid" for again. My bad.

Before we go on, lets make sure we are talking about the same situation. Note: I changed the example so the die in question doesn't show a Wildcard result, it wouldn't make much sense to discard such a die

During Player A's turn he had spent an Item (e.g. Dynamite) and added the red die to his die pool. After rolling the dice, the red die was showing a Peril result. Player A then plays a Spell card (e.g. Enchant Weapon) and places the red die (Peril face up) on the Spell card.

Player A's turn has now ended and it is Player B's turn.

Player B doesn't want the Peril result for the Adventure he wants to try (perhaps a more important Adventure has appeared and needs to be attempted right now, e.g. Transported by Magic). For whatever reason, Player B decides to remove the red die from the Spell.

The FAQ makes it clear that he is allowed to do this.
Before any roll, a player may remove some or all of
the dice held on spells in order to roll them. Any spell
that has no dice remaining on it is discarded. New
dice cannot be added to a spell to replace those that
were removed from it.

The question is if the red die is now part of Player B's dice pool?

One viewpoint says that since the red die has been paid for during Player A's turn then it was part of the dice pool then and is still part of the dice pool now. The fact that it had been placed on a Spell doesn't change this. Since Player B is allowed to remove dice held on Spells then is returns to the dice pool.

Another viewpoint says that as soon as the red die is removed from the Spell card then the Spell has been cancelled and the red die is simply available to be used again. Yellow and red die do not remain in the dice pool between player's turns (as stated on page 9 of the rules "In any event, the die is removed from the dice pool at the end of the active player's turn"). If Player B want to use the red die then he needs to spend an Item to add it to his dice pool.

Which viewpoint is correct? I don't really think there is a "correct" answer. Both methods work. Even if FFG officially rule this one way or the other, either method would be fine.

Personally, I think that the first method makes the game a little easier therefore that's a reason not to use it. I prefer the consistency of saying that the dice pool doesn't "carry over" to the next player's turn. Thematically, the Spell has been broken so it disperses to no effect. Whatever cost that had been paid is now lost.

An alternative viewpoint is that since the red dice has been paid for twice (with the Item that originally added it to the dice pool, and with a Spell) then there is no need to pay for it a third time. It also allows some player interaction as it is a nice way for Player A to "pay" for a die to be used in Player B's turn. Elder Sign doesn't have much interaction so it would be a shame to remove this as well.

One final note: All this only applies to the red and yellow dice. Green dice are always part of your dice pool so if it was a green die being removed from the Spell, then the player would be allowed to roll it for no cost (since you don't need to "pay" for green dice in the first place).

I'm sure there are many other options, logic and theme that could be applied to push your choice one way or the other. Feel free to play which ever way you are more comfortable with.



#5 MaddockKrug

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:12 AM

Hi there,

 

yeah, me, too. I gave you a brief reply on BGG as well. And also I would like to reassure you here as well: We speak of the same basic situation (regardless of what the red die's result is or whether it is about the red, the yellow or even about both dies).

Looking at the rules it really seems valid that you play it either way - play it more cooperative and supportive without making the subsequent active player pay with the proper item cards, or you limit the (as many say) easy game-play by making the new active player play common/ unique items in order to re-roll the dice he collects from the spell played by another gamer.

 

This really is an interesting game-mechanic.

 

All the best!

Mad


For GM: Mad's Adventure, Adventure Hooks, NPCs, and Locations - same at RPGGEEK

 

SW, to me, is a Spaghetti Western with space ships for horses. No matter what you do it causes a problem.  You just might save the day.  Crazy heroics and adventure!

 


#6 Vala_Melkor

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:25 PM

Hi Guys

 

Just came looking for some advice on securing & using coloured die (red/yellow & (Unseen Forces) white now!) and see there's confusion here as well. 

 

Lots of blahing, etc, from myself ... with a BGG keeping me right!  Any chance of an updated FAQ???

 

EDIT: A point of ref from an official source ...

 

 >>> http://boardgamegeek...576395#12576395 

 

... Onto my next headache! ... Walts


Edited by Vala_Melkor, 09 July 2013 - 12:51 PM.

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