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What's included in helmet augmentation?


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#1 Lecram

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:21 AM

 

So does the helmet augmentation basically give you the Auto-senses trait as per the Power Armour section?

Pg. 187

"specific upgrades can also add:

 - advanced vox links,   (what is the difference between a vox link and a vox caster?)

- targeting feeds,      (umm...what does this do?  Does it let you take a called shot as a half action)

- visual augmentations,  (+10 to visual perception?)

- combat data readouts,  (dunno...helps with the called shots as well.  Anything else it would do?  Keep track of your ammo?)

- and more. "    (what else is there?  suggestions? +10 to sound based perception, immunity to photon flash grenades and stun grenades?)

Then it specifically mentions:

"such items as preysense goggles, a rebreather, photo-visor, vox-caster,
or micro-bead, with standard upgrades containing all but
preysense goggles.
" (I get this)

"Good Craftsmanship models contain the goggles as well, while the user can only choose two of the
above for Poor models."
(this is straight forward to me as well)
 



#2 Cifer

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:16 PM

The first part is pure fluff, the last two sentences contain the rules - a standard helmet augmentation contains a rebreather, photo visor, vox caster/microbead, a good version adds preysense goggles to that and a poor version only has two of the systems.



#3 Lecram

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:26 PM

Really?

It's almost as easy to aquire an entire set of power armour (per the aquisition table), then rip out the auto-senses and put them in another helmet.  The advantage, is then you can trade off the power armour and have an easier time getting the prey-sense upgrade....

Or scavenge them, I suppose.  I just find it hard to believe that there's no other way to aquire auto-senses without getting a set of power armour...in fact shouldn't it be easier than aquiring power armour?

 And no, I don't want a set of power armour... just the upgraded helmet for my tricked-out carapace.



#4 Cifer

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:09 AM

 The problem might be that when you scavenge the auto-senses from power armour... you get auto-senses that are designed to work with power armour. That means they expect to have a high power consumption (after all, they can easily draw a lot of power from the PA's reactor without it being noticeable against the cost of moving), they might have additional augurs in the other body parts of the armour for redundancy, they might put their CPU into the backpack for space reasons, they might use all kinds of tricks that are not available when all you have to work with is a non-powered simple helmet, period. 

Also, note that the Very Rare suit of Light Power Armour has only two working sub-systems. Auto-senses might not be among them...



#5 Amaimon

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:30 AM

 two? I thought every suit of Power Armour has three working sub systems. Can you tell me where did you found that Light PA has only two?



#6 Cifer

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:59 AM

 I misremembered.

(Forum says my post is too short. Forum is stupid. Brevity is the soul of wit!)



#7 Lecram

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:49 AM

Cifer said:

 The problem might be that when you scavenge the auto-senses from power armour... you get auto-senses that are designed to work with power armour. That means they expect to have a high power consumption (after all, they can easily draw a lot of power from the PA's reactor without it being noticeable against the cost of moving), they might have additional augurs in the other body parts of the armour for redundancy, they might put their CPU into the backpack for space reasons, they might use all kinds of tricks that are not available when all you have to work with is a non-powered simple helmet, period. 

Also, note that the Very Rare suit of Light Power Armour has only two working sub-systems. Auto-senses might not be among them...

The point is it shouldn't be easier to get auto-senses, than getting a full set of power armour?  In fact, there should be an option to do so.  Also, shouldn't the rules back up the fluff?  If the fluff says, combat data read-outs and targeting systems, why do the rules only include the "visual augmentations"  ie:a photo visor?  Why even add that kind of thing to the fluff?  In fact the book specifically say,

"specific upgrades CAN also add advanced vox links, targeting
feeds, visual augmentations, combat data readouts, and
more."   (emphasis mine)

Which implies that any or all of the systems included in PA auto-senses CAN be included in Helmet augmentation.



#8 Cifer

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:48 AM

 The point is it shouldn't be easier to get auto-senses, than getting a full set of power armour?

It's been a while since I designed my last set of auto-senses, so... no idea. I just gave a reason why this might not be the case - auto senses may rely on the power generation, bulk and whole-body-systems of power armour, meaning that if you could get auto-senses without the PA, they may turn out to be useless without it. The helmet augmentation already contains a massive suite of sensors that can be transplanted into any helmet without worrying about power generation or battery lifetimes.

 

 



#9 DJSunhammer

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 02:51 PM

If it doesn't exist, create it.



#10 Lecram

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:38 AM

DJSunhammer said:

 

If it doesn't exist, create it.

 

 

After a chat with my GM, this is what he came up with:

Helmet augmentation (rare)
Vox, Phot visor, Rebreather (what Cifer was recommending)

Good Quality Helmet Augmenation (1) (Very Rare)
Auto-senses,  Power armour sub-system

Good Quality Helmet Augmentation (2) (Very Rare)
Same as regular Helmet Aug + Preysense

Best Quality Helmet Augmenation (Extremely Rare)
Combines all upgrades into one helmet.

 

 



#11 Blood Pact

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:50 AM

Looks perfectly good to me.

Maybe stat out the Poor helmet too, just to round out the entire spectrum.



#12 Lecram

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:37 AM

Blood Pact said:

Looks perfectly good to me.

Maybe stat out the Poor helmet too, just to round out the entire spectrum.

Poor Quality Helmet Augmentation (scarce)
Choose 2 of the followiong:
Photo-visor, Vox/microbead, rebreather

Same as book

 



#13 WittyDroog

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:37 PM

 I'm all for building your own things but I'm a little hesitant to allow something like Auto-Senses, as it's described as a subsystem, to be as easily obtainable in a simple helmet.

I'm leaning to agree with Cifer that the helmet itself is filled with a lot of fancy gizmos and gubbins that require the complete connected use with the Power Armor. Given the description, it sounds like there's a pretty sophisticated cogitator running. I'm inclined to believe that said cogitator is actually part of the suit itself that also runs the systems of the power muscles, stimulant injectors, etc. At the very least it's very complex being a HUD and all. Also I don't have any sources to back this claim but I have a strong feeling that when disconnected from the suit the helmet doesn't function at all (or any random person could just wear a helmet and run around in it). Vox functions are redundant in the suit's collar, but everything else I think gets "unplugged" from both the power supply and the cogitator.

 

So what does this mean for players who don't want power armor. Well I have a character with a cybernetic eye, sure it's not nearly as cool or mechanically beneficial as a power armor's helmet. There are pieces of equipment that provide things like night vision and protection from flash grenades, but not all in the same package. Maybe you can get it as long as your helmet has cables dangling from it to connect to a backpack power supply/cogitator or something. seems like a cool look thematically.



#14 Lecram

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:54 PM

WittyDroog said:

 I'm all for building your own things but I'm a little hesitant to allow something like Auto-Senses, as it's described as a subsystem, to be as easily obtainable in a simple helmet.

I'm leaning to agree with Cifer that the helmet itself is filled with a lot of fancy gizmos and gubbins that require the complete connected use with the Power Armor. Given the description, it sounds like there's a pretty sophisticated cogitator running. I'm inclined to believe that said cogitator is actually part of the suit itself that also runs the systems of the power muscles, stimulant injectors, etc. At the very least it's very complex being a HUD and all. Also I don't have any sources to back this claim but I have a strong feeling that when disconnected from the suit the helmet doesn't function at all (or any random person could just wear a helmet and run around in it). Vox functions are redundant in the suit's collar, but everything else I think gets "unplugged" from both the power supply and the cogitator.

 So what does this mean for players who don't want power armor. Well I have a character with a cybernetic eye, sure it's not nearly as cool or mechanically beneficial as a power armor's helmet. There are pieces of equipment that provide things like night vision and protection from flash grenades, but not all in the same package. Maybe you can get it as long as your helmet has cables dangling from it to connect to a backpack power supply/cogitator or something. seems like a cool look thematically.

How is building a cybernetic eye and implanting it less complicated than making a suped-up helmet? The fact that you can get cybernetic eyes and that fact that photo-visors and preysense goggle require no power source leads me to the conclusion that a good tech could fashion a helmet with a simple display with read-outs and targeting aids without the need for huge back-pack full of batteries and electronics.  I agree that it probably has a small battery, maybe you need to recharge it occasionally.  Yes, power armour has a huge power pack but that is mostly used to run things that use up lots of power, like the ability to increase someone's Str by 20 points, or the ability to move a 65kg peice of metal as if it weighs nothing. A balistic/manipulator mechanendrite implants have no power source at all(ie, they don't need to be recharged in-game), so I don't see it as a huge stretch.

I'm not suggesting that you take a set of auto-senses off power armour and put them onto a regular helmet (although, I'm sure with enough time and the right tech-use test it could be done), I'm suggesting that you have a helmet custom-built from scratch.  Over-lay screens that can be worn like goggles exist today and use up very little power.  The cogitator would be smaller and would be more specialized thus reducing its calculations:  it doesn't need to stabalize a full set of armour, co-ordinate a users movements, keep a constant diagnostic of dozens of systems ranging from the auto-senses to the waste reclamation system.  This would make it much more compact.  As I said above the FLUFF indicates that it offers Combat readouts, targeting systems and visual enhancements so I'm not coming out of left feild.

Lastly, the aquisition is at the same difficulty as getting a full suit of power armour.  Is it really that unbalanced?  In almost every situation it's more advantageous to get a full suit of armour and enjoy its superior protection, bonus to Stregth and 3 sub-systems (including auto--senses).

Oh, just read your 2 last sentances.  I'm perfectly fine with the helmet having cables and stuff and a (small) power-pack.  In fact I assumed it would be powered in some way.  Most gear seems to be powered one way or another, but the game doesn't focus on how often you recharge your auspex or change the batteries in your prey-sense goggles.  The exception is Power Armour of course, but as we can all agree, it needs far more power than any one peice of gear.



#15 WittyDroog

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:48 PM

 That's fair to bring up cybernetic eyes but here's the great qualifier. A lot of technology in the 40k universe is backwards engineered from ancient texts. So the ability to make a concealed cybernetic eye (which we've viewed the character as having a large camera lens-esque device sticking out of his socket as opposed to an actual cybernetic "eye", possibly best quality offers that. Maybe something built by the Jokero) does not nessesarily mean that the Adeptus Mechanicus can fabricate other systems into a similar format. Also I would assume, being cybernetic, the eye draws power from the body itself. Also the eye is in no way as powerful as Auto-senses, it's basically an Auspex. 

 

But yeah you see what I mean, that it would have attachments to a power source in your characters backpack or maybe a brick sized pack off the belt, etc.

 

And I never really go with the argument of "It's the same acquisition cost as ___" because acquisition is supposed to be an abstract measure of the difficulty in time, resources, and scarcity of location to get something. Various things have the same "cost" as other things which seem like they would be harder to acquire, but the costs are broken down into only a few categories. Also power armor isn't for everyone as it has various disadvantages, especially for human characters. Hard to be a stealthy sniper Renegade in big clunky power armor (not that that stops anyone, however)



#16 Lecram

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:20 AM

WittyDroog said:

 That's fair to bring up cybernetic eyes but here's the great qualifier. A lot of technology in the 40k universe is backwards engineered from ancient texts.

 

True but IF it has ever been invented at any time, there's a good chance the proper formulae, rites and rituals have been passed down to make a new one.  It's probably pretty rare - Very Rare Most likely!  Our group is saying it has been.  In fact, the assassinorum has some awesome ones that are the beez neez and they are even gene-coded to boot (Vindicare Spy Mask, DH asension pg.147).  Those are Near Unique and I'm not looking for anything that good.  And before you say that that technology is Super Secret, and barely understood and jealously guarded by the Vindicare, I'd like to say that I'm just trying to point out, that if gear like that exists, then lesser augmentations from other, less secretive organizations have probably existed at some point in the course of time...

WittyDroog said:

Also power armor isn't for everyone as it has various disadvantages, especially for human characters. Hard to be a stealthy sniper Renegade in big clunky power armor (not that that stops anyone, however)

That's why I said ALMOST always better, but this is exactly why I want to aquire the helmet and not a full suit of PA.



#17 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:25 PM

One factor that nobody has brought up is that, with the Autosenses in Astartes Power Armour at least, the systems are designed for direct neural interface through the Black Carapace - it isn't merely a heads-up display projected over the inside of a visor, but a whole suite of sensory systems directing information into the wearer's central nervous system.

Now, mortal imitations of the war-plate of the Astartes will invariably have different systems, but it does seem to me that Autosenses implies something far more comprehensive than what the helmet augmentation package contains.


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#18 Lecram

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:52 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

 

One factor that nobody has brought up is that, with the Autosenses in Astartes Power Armour at least, the systems are designed for direct neural interface through the Black Carapace - it isn't merely a heads-up display projected over the inside of a visor, but a whole suite of sensory systems directing information into the wearer's central nervous system.

Now, mortal imitations of the war-plate of the Astartes will invariably have different systems, but it does seem to me that Autosenses implies something far more comprehensive than what the helmet augmentation package contains.

 

 

Except that, in Black Crusade at least, a human can start with power armour (or aquire it) and choose 3 systems.

pg.175

"Some of these systems are shared across
human and Legion power armour, while others are limited to
the Traitor Adeptus Astartes only."

By virtue of the fact that auto-senses is one of the common sub-systems, it shouldn't need a direct connection to ones nervous system, so you're right that it probably uses some other method to translate the information. Legion Power armour has a few more sub-systems like bio-monitors that would definitely be connected to the nervous system.

I really think a helmet package can be as little or as much as you want it to be as long as its balanced.  In our game the heretek made a Tech-Use check and patched a wireless pict recorder signal into the sorcerers helmet system via his vox so that he could monitor what was being recorded.  There's nothing in "auto-senses" that says there is a read-out or display that would allow for that, but we thought it would be reasonable that there would be some kind of visual over-lay we could use it to view  pict recorder data.  In fact the fluff for helmet augmentations seems better suited than auto-senses for that kind use.

I'd also like to apologize for arguing so vehemently over this.  I'm not trying to be oppositional ;)  I'd originally started the thread to see what people commonly put into their helmet systems so I was supprised by the answer, "no you can't get any of that".






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