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Fouled Well


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#1 Anodos

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:57 AM

 "Player may choose and discard 1 card at random from hand."

 Can I choose (and look at the card) but not discard?

If not, why include "may choose" instead of simply saying "may discard"?



#2 Bomb

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:32 AM

Because you don't have to choose to discard ANY cards from your hand.  You are misunderstanding the text I think.  The choice is to discard 1 card or to not discard 1 card.  If one player chooses not to discard a card, Fouled Well gains surge.  It all depends on how much you value what is in your hand.

Full text on Fouled Well:

When Revealed: Each player may choose and discard 1 card at random from his hand. If all players did not discard 1 card, Fouled Well gains surge.



#3 scottindeed

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:41 AM

The wording on the card is very poor English.

 

Each player may choose whether to discard one card at random from his hand

or

Each player may discard one card at random from his hand



#4 radiskull

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:07 AM

 The word choice is odd, but you get used to it.  The word "choose" tends to be pretty important - it signifies that this is an effect that targets one of the cards in your hand, which may be important for other card interactions.

Without the word "choose", the effect would be targetless.



#5 Anodos

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:37 PM

Though you all seem to agree on what should happen, none of you seem to agree on the explanation for the wording.

This does not instill confidence in the answer :)



#6 Anodos

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:45 PM

Bomb said:

Because you don't have to choose to discard ANY cards from your hand.  You are misunderstanding the text I think.  The choice is to discard 1 card or to not discard 1 card.  If one player chooses not to discard a card, Fouled Well gains surge.  It all depends on how much you value what is in your hand.

Full text on Fouled Well:

When Revealed: Each player may choose and discard 1 card at random from his hand. If all players did not discard 1 card, Fouled Well gains surge.

While its quite possible I am misunderstanding the text, your explanation doesn't seem to explain much. If the text said "choose to discard" your explanation would make sense. But, if the text simply said "Each player may discard 1 card at random from his hand. If all players did not discard 1 card, Fouled Well gains surge." then the fact that one may choose not to discard is still perfectly clear. How does "may choose and discard" add anything to how the card works that "may discard" does not?



#7 Anodos

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:49 PM

scottindeed said:

The wording on the card is very poor English.

 

Each player may choose whether to discard one card at random from his hand

or

Each player may discard one card at random from his hand

Meh. Barring some FAQ to the contrary, I will have to reject this explanation out of hand. "Poor English" requires a ruling, not an explanation.



#8 Anodos

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:01 PM

radiskull said:

 

 The word choice is odd, but you get used to it.  The word "choose" tends to be pretty important - it signifies that this is an effect that targets one of the cards in your hand, which may be important for other card interactions.

Without the word "choose", the effect would be targetless.

 

 

How would it be targetless? There are other effects which simply say to "discard at random from hand" without inserting "choose and discard" yet they are clearly not targetless. For instance, Necromancer's Pass "The first player must discard 2 cards from his hand at random to travel here." This has not "choose and discard" - does this mean that it is targetless? Or Protector of Lorien "Discard a card from your hand to give attached hero +1 or +1 until the end of the phase." Why not "choose and discard"?

Now, I can see how "choose" might set up some card interactions which otherwise might not happen...but can you provide an example of when?

As far as I can tell, in all other cases where "choose and discard" are used, the player knows in advance what card is being discarded. Maybe its the "at random" combined with "choose and discard" which is throwing me.



#9 Angus Lee

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:22 PM

Bomb said:

Because you don't have to choose to discard ANY cards from your hand.  You are misunderstanding the text I think.  The choice is to discard 1 card or to not discard 1 card.  If one player chooses not to discard a card, Fouled Well gains surge.  It all depends on how much you value what is in your hand.

Full text on Fouled Well:

When Revealed: Each player may choose and discard 1 card at random from his hand. If all players did not discard 1 card, Fouled Well gains surge.

English is not my native language, so I'm having a hard time understanding the wordings on this card.  Besides the "choose and discard 1 card at random" (which I interpret as "choose to discard 1 card at random") part, I'm confused with the second part "If all players did not discard 1 card...".  The way I read that it implies it only gains surge when all players chooses not to discard.  However, in the above quote, Bomb said "If one player chooses not to discard a card, Fouled Well gains surge".  Does Fouled Well gain surge if one player chooses to discard a card at random while the other players (assuming in a multiplayer game) chooses not to discard?


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#10 GrandSpleen

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:43 PM

The wording is strange enough that I would call it an error.  It should say "choose to discard" rather than "and,"  as was mentioned.

Anodos, the bottom line is that there is NO WAY in the English language to read this card and satisfy that clause, "at random," without making it a blind discard.  Although an optimistic and hopeful player might hang on to that "and," you cannot in any way reconcile it with "at random."  Gotta give in!

The intent seems to be "choose" in the sense of "decide whether to" and not "choose" in the sense of "select one."

edit: I agree that a ruling on such wording would be nice, but from a grammatical (actually semantic/pragmatic) standpoint either "and" is an error or "at random" is an error, and it would be harder to forget to delete "at random" than it would be to make a conjunction/infinitival error.



#11 GrandSpleen

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:45 PM

Angus Lee said:

 

English is not my native language, so I'm having a hard time understanding the wordings on this card.  Besides the "choose and discard 1 card at random" (which I interpret as "choose to discard 1 card at random") part, I'm confused with the second part "If all players did not discard 1 card...".  The way I read that it implies it only gains surge when all players chooses not to discard.  However, in the above quote, Bomb said "If one player chooses not to discard a card, Fouled Well gains surge".  Does Fouled Well gain surge if one player chooses to discard a card at random while the other players (assuming in a multiplayer game) chooses not to discard?

 

Angus, I believe it means that ALL players need to discard a card -- otherwise Fouled Well gains surge.  If even one player decides not to discard, Fouled Well gains surge.



#12 starhawk77

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:35 PM

Fouled Well is somewhat similar in effect to Necromancer's Pass, which simply instructs a player to "discard 2 cards from his hand at random." Still, I wouldn't get too hung up on the inclusion of "choose" in the Well's text. It's easy to infer that the reference to choice is a superfluous error; it strains credulity to say the insistence on a discard "at random" was an unintended part of the card. 

In order to discard a card "at random," you have to physically "pick" a card. That's all it means. You use a method of random selection to choose which card is discarded. Yes, it would be simpler if it were worded the same way as Necromancer's Pass, but the randomness is the most important part of the text. Each player must randomly discard 1 card, or Fouled Well gains surge. 



#13 Anodos

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:45 PM

 Oh I am not in any way trying to negate the random aspect. I am exploring whether or not the choose and discard are somewhat distinct. IOW, choose a card at random, then decide whether or not to discard this card. My reasoning stems from the fact that all other usages of "choose and discard" involve knowing what card is being discarded before the decision to discard is made AND the fact that the only other effect I can find which involves a random discard (or blind discard from either deck for that matter) says simply to discard. 

Even if such reasoning wrong (and I strongly suspect it is) there seems to be some discrepancy or inconsistency present. I had hoped someone else had already worked this out beforehand but apparently not :)



#14 Anodos

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:03 PM

Angus Lee said:

 

Bomb said:

 

Because you don't have to choose to discard ANY cards from your hand.  You are misunderstanding the text I think.  The choice is to discard 1 card or to not discard 1 card.  If one player chooses not to discard a card, Fouled Well gains surge.  It all depends on how much you value what is in your hand.

Full text on Fouled Well:

When Revealed: Each player may choose and discard 1 card at random from his hand. If all players did not discard 1 card, Fouled Well gains surge.

 

 

English is not my native language, so I'm having a hard time understanding the wordings on this card.  Besides the "choose and discard 1 card at random" (which I interpret as "choose to discard 1 card at random") part, I'm confused with the second part "If all players did not discard 1 card...".  The way I read that it implies it only gains surge when all players chooses not to discard.  However, in the above quote, Bomb said "If one player chooses not to discard a card, Fouled Well gains surge".  Does Fouled Well gain surge if one player chooses to discard a card at random while the other players (assuming in a multiplayer game) chooses not to discard?

 

 

Actually, you are absolutely correct. Heh, I am an English speaker (not to mention logic teacher) and didn't catch that till you mentioned it. Logically "If all players did not discard..." kicks in only if all players did not discard. 

Bet anything though they meant "If any player did not discard 1 card..." or "If not all players discarded 1 card... :) Either way, something else for the FAQ. 



#15 Cotillion37

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:46 PM

The way I see it, is that there are 2 options:

1) Player can choose not to discard a card

2) Player can choose to discard a card

If they choose to discard a card, it must be randomly selected.



#16 Bomb

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:27 AM

Anodos said:

Angus Lee said:

 

Bomb said:

 

Because you don't have to choose to discard ANY cards from your hand.  You are misunderstanding the text I think.  The choice is to discard 1 card or to not discard 1 card.  If one player chooses not to discard a card, Fouled Well gains surge.  It all depends on how much you value what is in your hand.

Full text on Fouled Well:

When Revealed: Each player may choose and discard 1 card at random from his hand. If all players did not discard 1 card, Fouled Well gains surge.

 

 

English is not my native language, so I'm having a hard time understanding the wordings on this card.  Besides the "choose and discard 1 card at random" (which I interpret as "choose to discard 1 card at random") part, I'm confused with the second part "If all players did not discard 1 card...".  The way I read that it implies it only gains surge when all players chooses not to discard.  However, in the above quote, Bomb said "If one player chooses not to discard a card, Fouled Well gains surge".  Does Fouled Well gain surge if one player chooses to discard a card at random while the other players (assuming in a multiplayer game) chooses not to discard?

 

 

Actually, you are absolutely correct. Heh, I am an English speaker (not to mention logic teacher) and didn't catch that till you mentioned it. Logically "If all players did not discard..." kicks in only if all players did not discard. 

Bet anything though they meant "If any player did not discard 1 card..." or "If not all players discarded 1 card... :) Either way, something else for the FAQ. 

Hmm... I didn't catch that either and that is absolutely what that means logically.  I have doubts that FFG would have written that condition in such a way that they expect every player to figure that out.   "If no player discards a card, Fouled Well gains surge." would be a better fit if we only needed 1 card to be discarded to keep it from gaining Surge.

If we were to follow that literally, it would make it easier for 2+ player games to fulfill the condition, which I think is dumb as well and will only feed the Single player getting the shaft arguments brewing lately.



#17 radiskull

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:13 AM

Anodos said:

How would it be targetless? There are other effects which simply say to "discard at random from hand" without inserting "choose and discard" yet they are clearly not targetless. For instance, Necromancer's Pass "The first player must discard 2 cards from his hand at random to travel here." This has not "choose and discard" - does this mean that it is targetless? Or Protector of Lorien "Discard a card from your hand to give attached hero +1 or +1 until the end of the phase." Why not "choose and discard"?

Now, I can see how "choose" might set up some card interactions which otherwise might not happen...but can you provide an example of when?

As far as I can tell, in all other cases where "choose and discard" are used, the player knows in advance what card is being discarded. Maybe its the "at random" combined with "choose and discard" which is throwing me.

In Fouled Well, the discarding is the effect of the card, hence "choose".  In both of the examples you cited, the discarding is the cost, so wouldn't really be able to be interacted with through other card effects, or cancelled, or anything.

There isn't a good example in the current card pool of why that wording would make a difference, but if we had a card say something like "Whenever an effect chooses a card in a player's hand, that player draws a card after the effect resolves", you'd get the draw off of Fouled Well, but not Protector of Lorien.



#18 Anodos

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:17 AM

 Yeah Bomb, I think it's more likely that they chose their wording poorly.  



#19 Anodos

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:29 AM

radiskull said:

Anodos said:

 

How would it be targetless? There are other effects which simply say to "discard at random from hand" without inserting "choose and discard" yet they are clearly not targetless. For instance, Necromancer's Pass "The first player must discard 2 cards from his hand at random to travel here." This has not "choose and discard" - does this mean that it is targetless? Or Protector of Lorien "Discard a card from your hand to give attached hero +1 or +1 until the end of the phase." Why not "choose and discard"?

Now, I can see how "choose" might set up some card interactions which otherwise might not happen...but can you provide an example of when?

As far as I can tell, in all other cases where "choose and discard" are used, the player knows in advance what card is being discarded. Maybe its the "at random" combined with "choose and discard" which is throwing me.

 

 

In Fouled Well, the discarding is the effect of the card, hence "choose".  In both of the examples you cited, the discarding is the cost, so wouldn't really be able to be interacted with through other card effects, or cancelled, or anything.

There isn't a good example in the current card pool of why that wording would make a difference, but if we had a card say something like "Whenever an effect chooses a card in a player's hand, that player draws a card after the effect resolves", you'd get the draw off of Fouled Well, but not Protector of Lorien.

Interesting distinction. It appears to hold consistently. Not yet clear why it matters but its an answer I can live with. Thanks. 






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