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Killing big tyrannids


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#1 peterstepon

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:21 PM

Some of the Master sized Tyrannids in the supplement "jericho Reach" look like a nightmare to kill.  How is the best way to eliminate them?  Would it be with a devistator marine with a las cannon, or can a squad of tactical marines take one down?  What are some experiences that players have had to bring down the big beasts?



#2 professor_kylan

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:31 PM

I had my lads snipe at a Hierodule from their razorback with TL Lascannon until they got its attention, before driving away from the town it was munching on. THey lured it off towards a Haephastus Ore-seeker (from RT Into The Storm) where the Black Templar Assault Marine was waiting. He had forced the cowering Tech-adepts to rouse the Ore-seeker and as the Heirodule got there, he used the various mining arms, drills and lasers to engage the thing in single combat. As he did so, the Librarian was nullifying the attacks the hive mind was sending out, one ofthe Tactical Marines and Techmarine had jumped onto its back and were attempting to prise open enough armour plates in order to attack the Hive Node directly and eventually, as they started laying weapon fire into its exposed brain and the Assault Marine had knocked it off its feet, the other Tactical marine - a White Scar- ran and jumped into a nearby Termite transport and drove it into the beast and out the other side.

It was pretty epic :D



#3 Malevant

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:05 PM

Kylan - you're right, that IS pretty epic!  It sounds like it must have been a blast to play and run.



#4 professor_kylan

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:56 PM

I'm a big fan of set pieces like that... I like to think my lads appreciate them :P



#5 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:00 PM

Use vehicles. Tyranid melee attacks do not scale, so be you a Hormagaunt or a Hierophant, your Pen is still 3.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

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#6 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:40 PM

H.B.M.C. said:

Use vehicles. Tyranid melee attacks do not scale, so be you a Hormagaunt or a Hierophant, your Pen is still 3.

BYE

Which is one of the reasons why I never use the adversaries in the books - I far prefer to write my own.

Rule of Thumb houserule for the Tyranids, though - for every size category above Hulking, add +1d10 damage and +2 Pen. Do that, and I guarantee that a Carnifex will tear tanks apart...


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.

#7 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:51 PM

 And instagib PCs?



#8 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:23 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Which is one of the reasons why I never use the adversaries in the books - I far prefer to write my own.

Rule of Thumb houserule for the Tyranids, though - for every size category above Hulking, add +1d10 damage and +2 Pen. Do that, and I guarantee that a Carnifex will tear tanks apart...



Interesting you should bring up that solution. This originally came up the first time we used vehicles in Deathwatch, specifically the Furioso Dread when testing First Founding. I had this grand plan where the player using the Dread would slam down in a drop pod, clear the landing zone of Tyranids and then the remaining four members would teleport down in their Terminator armour. So far the day had gone very smoothly, with the two other missions played out as expected and 10 other characters tested (yes, we tested 15 different things from First Founding in one day... it was a marathon 14 hour session!).

Then I sent a Carnifex into melee with the Dreadnought... and the game came to a grinding and screeching halt. An hour later we had decided that doubling the Pen per size bracket (so pen 3 for normal, Pen 6 for Hulking, Pen 9 for Enormous, Pen 12 for Massive and so on) might be a good start, because we were worried about just adding +1d10 for every size bracket (Tyranid Warriors are Enormous, so they'd be doing an average of 24.5 damage, Pen 9... that didn't seem right). We didn't test it out in the end because we wanted to move on (and Zoanthropes can damage vehicles), but its something we've wondered how you could fix.

It's a real shame the same Pen 3 problem came back in The Jericho Reach. I'd've hoped they would have fixed that by then. Ah well, there will be another errata and weapons appendix one day, right? Well I sure hope there is... 

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#9 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:45 AM

AluminiumWolf said:

 And instagib PCs?

If you're stupid enough to let a bio-titan stand on you, it's probably better for the genepool that you don't survive.

And really, if you're going to try and face a Carnifex in hand-to-hand, it's probably a good idea to be carrying some kind of Force Field (Iron Halo, Storm Shield, etc) or be really good at dodging, because otherwise you're likely to be reduced to a finely-ground testament to overconfidence.


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

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#10 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:01 AM

If a Space Marine can't fight it hand to hand no one can, and it is a shame if the fighter can't kill the dragon. And we have had complaints before about the all or nothing nature of DW combat. We are aiming for attacks that don't do nothing, but at the same time don't oneshot characters.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

because otherwise you're likely to be reduced to a finely-ground testament to overconfidence.

With all seriousness, don't you think that attitude is more suited to the recently announced Only War game with its more human scale heroics, than to a game about the epic deeds of the mighty Space Marines?



#11 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:17 AM

AluminiumWolf said:

If a Space Marine can't fight it hand to hand no one can, and it is a shame if the fighter can't kill the dragon. And we have had complaints before about the all or nothing nature of DW combat. We are aiming for attacks that don't do nothing, but at the same time don't oneshot characters.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

because otherwise you're likely to be reduced to a finely-ground testament to overconfidence.

 

With all seriousness, don't you think that attitude is more suited to the recently announced Only War game with its more human scale heroics, than to a game about the epic deeds of the mighty Space Marines?

The mighty Space Marines are not undefeatable. That is what makes the 40K verse scary. 

Space Marines were made to handle the things in the universe that no mortal man could. Space Marines not being able to handle everything in a one-on-one fight is what keeps things interesting and reinforces the need for the Astartes. If everything could be solved by a SM going toe to toe in melee with something then the Astartes don't need to exist.



#12 Okidus

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:18 AM

 massed fire or some termies with PF/CF



#13 Kshatriya

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:51 AM

BC rules. Charge + Swift Attack/TWF. Then Assassin Strike away.

Course the BC rules apply to them too, so they'll just charge and Swift you right back.

I am OK with big things like a Carnifex not being able to turn on a dime like the more humanoid/human-sized lictor or tyranid warrior. So attacking them from behind is not a terrible plan...worst case, they'll get a few kicks in, but it's better than the buzzsaw they have for a mouth.



#14 professor_kylan

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:39 PM

Don't forget that the Carnifexes and the like can perform actions other than just:

10 Attempt to hit bad guy

20 Goto 10

 

Wanna mess with characters in vehicles and you have a Carny on the table? Have it flip their tank. Have a Hierophant pick up a tank in a feeding tendril and have the group have to jump onto the the outside of the vehicle to use bolters and blades to try to blow the tendril apart to make it drop them (I'd use stats for a Nid warrior for each tendril). If you're fighting something THAT big, make a show of it. Watch Jurrasic Park again to see how the T-Rex acts and use that for a Carny. If anyone has inspiration for somehting the size of a Hierophant, feel free to chime in. The big fortress things at the end of Appleseed, perhaps?

 



#15 Face Eater

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:30 PM

professor_kylan said:

If anyone has inspiration for somehting the size of a Hierophant, feel free to chime in. The big fortress things at the end of Appleseed, perhaps?

Cloverfield, Godzilla enemies, Cthulu, Shadow of Colosus, Monster Hunter Dragons.

Size is off in most cases but you get the idea.



#16 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:42 AM

AluminiumWolf said:

If a Space Marine can't fight it hand to hand no one can, and it is a shame if the fighter can't kill the dragon. And we have had complaints before about the all or nothing nature of DW combat. We are aiming for attacks that don't do nothing, but at the same time don't oneshot characters.

If you get hit by something that is capable of tearing a tank in two, and you're not as tough as a tank, then you go squish. It is, therefore, in your best interest to find ways to circumvent that problem if confronted with such a creature.

I didn't say Space Marines can't fight Carnifexes in hand to hand. I merely said that they have to be sufficiently smart, skilled and well-equipped for the task - if you're agile enough to be able to climb its talons without getting eviscerated, and shove a krak grenade down its throat (as Ragnar Blackmane does in the short story in the original Codex: Space Wolves), or if you take a blow from its claws with a Storm Shield before retaliating with a Thunder Hammer to the face, then you're well on your way to a triumph that will go down in your chapter's archives.

AluminiumWolf said:

With all seriousness, don't you think that attitude is more suited to the recently announced Only War game with its more human scale heroics, than to a game about the epic deeds of the mighty Space Marines?

I don't think that you understand what epic deeds actually means.

Generally speaking, a victory is all the more satisfying if it came with a challenge, if not a cost. To face overwhelming odds and win - a staple of the Astartes epic deeds - requires that the heroes confront the very real possibility of death and ignominious defeat... because if that possibility isn't there, then the odds weren't actually overwhelming. And nobody cares if you faced underwhelming odds and won.

In short, the more likely it is that you will be defeated or die in the attempt, the greater the triumph when you emerge victorious.


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

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#17 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:01 AM

+++++If you get hit by something that is capable of tearing a tank in two, and you're not as tough as a tank, then you go squish. It is, therefore, in your best interest to find ways to circumvent that problem if confronted with such a creature.

I didn't say Space Marines can't fight Carnifexes in hand to hand. I merely said that they have to be sufficiently smart, skilled and well-equipped for the task - if you're agile enough to be able to climb its talons without getting eviscerated, and shove a krak grenade down its throat (as Ragnar Blackmane does in the short story in the original Codex: Space Wolves), or if you take a blow from its claws with a Storm Shield before retaliating with a Thunder Hammer to the face, then you're well on your way to a triumph that will go down in your chapter's archives.+++++

The problem with save or die effects is that you can't do much about them other than hope they don't happen. Take for instance a monster that does 1/3 of your hit points every turn without fail vs. a monster than instakills you 1 turn in three. On average, both will have killed you after the third hit, but, with the first monster if looks like you are not going to finish it before it gets the third hit in you can try something else - healing or running away. But with the instakill monster you just have to hope it doesn't squish you before you kill it.

+++++I don't think that you understand what epic deeds actually means.

Generally speaking, a victory is all the more satisfying if it came with a challenge, if not a cost. To face overwhelming odds and win - a staple of the Astartes epic deeds - requires that the heroes confront the very real possibility of death and ignominious defeat... because if that possibility isn't there, then the odds weren't actually overwhelming. And nobody cares if you faced underwhelming odds and won.

In short, the more likely it is that you will be defeated or die in the attempt, the greater the triumph when you emerge victorious.+++++

Well, do your players really lose most of the time so victory is all the sweater, or do they win most of the time but by acting like they are afraid of everything?

There is always going to be a tension between the fact that if you face insurmountable odds you are going to lose most of the time, and wanting to play an epic hero who does epic deeds most of the time. 

But if you want to act like you are afraid of everything, wouldn't you be better off playing Only War?



#18 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:49 AM

AluminiumWolf said:

The problem with save or die effects is that you can't do much about them other than hope they don't happen. Take for instance a monster that does 1/3 of your hit points every turn without fail vs. a monster than instakills you 1 turn in three. On average, both will have killed you after the third hit, but, with the first monster if looks like you are not going to finish it before it gets the third hit in you can try something else - healing or running away. But with the instakill monster you just have to hope it doesn't squish you before you kill it.

Which is A: why you have Fate Points, and B: why Deathwatch deals with teams of characters who fight better collectively than they do individually. Those two elements mean that the occasional bout of misfortune is less impactful.

Beyond that, combat should never be predictable - I don't honestly believe that any player should be able to send their character into battle with that sort of certainty, as it leads to people trying to game the system and an "MMO Grinding" mentality. Combat is immediate risk and immediate reward, it's frantic, and it's deadly and it's unrepentantly brutal, especially in 40k.

AluminiumWolf said:

Well, do your players really lose most of the time so victory is all the sweater, or do they win most of the time but by acting like they are afraid of everything?

There is always going to be a tension between the fact that if you face insurmountable odds you are going to lose most of the time, and wanting to play an epic hero who does epic deeds most of the time. 

But if you want to act like you are afraid of everything, wouldn't you be better off playing Only War?

You do realise that just because the odds are overwhelming that doesn't mean you have to lose 9 times out of 10. It's the hero's job to defy the odds, afterall... but that doesn't mean that the odds weren't against him to begin with.

You seem to be set in the notion that just because something can kill the heroes that it inevitably will (and that the players can't do anything about it), and apparently respond to the notion that players like to be challenged with disbelief.

A group of players who only faces things they can easily beat will get bored - it requires no luck, no skill, no effort and no thought to triumph, and thus victories are essentially meaningless. A group of players who face situations that are a real threat - creatures able to maim or kill the characters, or situations that they can't simply stroll through - have to think, they have to deal with the limited resources of wounds, fate points, time and uses of special abilities or wargear, they have to overcome debilitating injuries... and when they succeed, it is all the more memorable and rewarding.

Sure, sometimes they don't succeed, and it might be luck, or it might be stupid decisions on their part... but part of the experience of playing Deathwatch is meeting the challenge and snatching victory from the jaws of defeat in spite of everything. Sometimes characters die... but their legends continue and new heroes arrive to take their place, especially if they have died to secure victory (the rulebook actually contains rules about Heroic Sacrifices for situations just like this).

If there was never a risk of failure, then the deeds aren't epic. Nothing worth winning was ever won without luck, blood, sweat or all three.


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

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#19 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:00 AM

+++++You do realise that just because the odds are overwhelming that doesn't mean you have to lose 9 times out of 10+++++

As you say, if you win all the time the odds against you are not overwhelming.

We are not looking for actual difficulty so much as the appearance of difficulty.

And, especially when there are a lot of people playing the game, no one cheats the odds (and the house always wins). The 33% instakill monster is going to instakill 1/3 of the marines it comes in to contact with on the first turn. For every group that wins the encounter there are going to be others who got splated. Thats... how odds work.

+++++and it's deadly and it's unrepentantly brutal, especially in 40k.+++++

Unless your name is Gaunt, Cain, Priad, Loken, Jericho, Stern etc. (Or Conan, Gotrek and Felix, Judge Dredd or any number of related characters). Deadly and unrepentantly brutal for NPCs sure, but who cares about NPCs?

I feel there are two kinds of Warhammer hero - the main character in short fiction, who is ****** and has a good chance of not surviving the story, and the hero of multi book/comic series who plays by very different rules. Surely we can see the need for a Warhammer roleplaying game to deal with both kinds of character.



#20 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:36 AM

AluminiumWolf said:

And, especially when there are a lot of people playing the game, no one cheats the odds (and the house always wins). The 33% instakill monster is going to instakill 1/3 of the marines it comes in to contact with on the first turn. For every group that wins the encounter there are going to be others who got splated. Thats... how odds work.

Sure. And it's the responsibility of the hero to kick probability in the balls and win anyway - figure out a way to circumvent the problem, improve his chances, etc.

Contrary to your rather obvious strawman of an example, the chances of success in a particular endeavour are not fixed... indeed, the combat system is built around the notion that players (and thus characters) will seek the circumstances that most benefit them while impeding their enemies.

Beyond even that, no two groups will ever face precisely the same encounter - countless minute differences in characters, GM and player styles, and the effects of previous encounters will produce countless different versions of the same basic event, some only subtly different, others wildly divergent. Sure, in a pure stand-up-and-fight with no terrain, no distances between characters (everyone is in melee from the moment initiative is rolled), then the situation may resolve itself as blandly as you insist on describing it... but the point is that no encounter is as straightforward as that, and quite deliberately.

You defy the odds by changing the situation. That you don't seem to get that makes me wonder how much RPG experience you actually have... because that's basic stuff, taking advantage of the flexibility inherent in the medium that isn't possible in computer games (which can only depict what the designers want you to do, where a paper-and-pencil RPG has infinitely more freedom of choice built in).

AluminiumWolf said:

Unless your name is Gaunt, Cain, Priad, Loken, Jericho, Stern etc. (Or Conan, Gotrek and Felix, Judge Dredd or any number of related characters). Deadly and unrepentantly brutal for NPCs sure, but who cares about NPCs?

NPCs are people too!

AluminiumWolf said:

I feel there are two kinds of Warhammer hero - the main character in short fiction, who is ****** and has a good chance of not surviving the story, and the hero of multi book/comic series who plays by very different rules. Surely we can see the need for a Warhammer roleplaying game to deal with both kinds of character.

The latter has Fate Points and has the full attention of a single player behind him... those two things alone make a single player character significantly more powerful and survivable than an equivalent NPC.


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.




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