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#1 Baradiel

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:55 AM

First off, let me start off by saying that I am looking forward to this game.  I am a bit of a game collector/junkie, and I think this has potential.

Now, that being said, my critcisms of the idea-

 

1.  Flesh out the other game lines first.  Granted, they can take a hiatus from DH for a while, as they have most of it covered, and even have not one, but two trillogy adventures published.  I wouldn't mind seeing some more material strictly for Ascension though.  RT has quite a bit out for it at the moment, so they could get away with a breatk for bit a well.  Deathwatch still needs a bit more, namely a nice big epic adventure.  BC obviously needs much more done.

2.  Xenos.  Yes, the Imperium is awesome, I myself am a hardcore Space Marine player.  That being said, there are hard-core fans of the Xenos races who should get their turn.  The options in "Into the Storm" are nice, but you are still essentially playing an Imperium based game.  An Eldar game has potentiel, as does even an Ork game if done right (I could see adapting the BC model where your eventual goal is to gain enough support that you lead a WAAAGH).  A Tau game could even include more than one race, as the Tau Empire is a tad more cosmopolitan than the other stellar nations.  I think a game focusing on Xenos should be next instead of Guard, personally.  Granted, players of Nids and Necrons are going to be left out, as there really isn't much that can be done RP-wise with them, though a game focusing on a Genestealer cult DOES have potential.

 

 



#2 DJSunhammer

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:45 AM

I don't feel genestealer cults or orks have much potential for an RPG. Both are just incredibly one sided.



#3 Darck Child

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:42 AM

You couldn't have expressed your opinion in one of the other threads already discussing the same topic??



#4 ranoncles

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:51 AM

DJSunhammer said:

I don't feel genestealer cults or orks have much potential for an RPG. Both are just incredibly one sided.

Don't know about genestealers but Orks certainly have potential IMO. Just look at the Gorkamorka game in which Orks crashed on a world and need to get supplies to build/repair their ship to return to the Waaaaaaagh. You have different clans/factions and if used in an RPG you can steal, fight, rob, trade, fight vehicular warfare or just race for victory and whatnot with other Orks and grots as well as humans or xenos on the planet. All with a defined goal of getting back amongst the stars...

 

Might not do for a long term campaign but for a couple of sessions, most WH40 players familiar with Orks could have a lot of fun with that.

 

 



#5 Baradiel

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:54 AM

DJSunhammer said:

I don't feel genestealer cults or orks have much potential for an RPG. Both are just incredibly one sided.

 

A genestealer cult has a lot of potential for RPing.  Orks, if done with a similar model of BC, could be done.



#6 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:32 PM

Baradiel said:

1.  Flesh out the other game lines first.




Really? Putting aside Black Crusade as it's the newest, each of the other three lines have heaps of books. I think they've all been 'fleshed out'. That's not say that they can't or won't release more, but it's not as if each line's got a Core Rulebook, a GM Kit and that's it.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#7 DJSunhammer

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:18 PM

Orks and genestealers both have a distinct and pretty much unflexible personality. There is only ever one direction you can take with an ork or a stealer cult because its all been pre-written. Orks smash and kill. Genestealers infiltrate for a while then call the Hive Fleet. End of game. At best you could get a four or five sessions before playing either one just became boring, if that.



#8 H2SO4

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:08 PM

DJSunhammer said:

 

Orks and genestealers both have a distinct and pretty much unflexible personality. There is only ever one direction you can take with an ork or a stealer cult because its all been pre-written. Orks smash and kill. Genestealers infiltrate for a while then call the Hive Fleet. End of game. At best you could get a four or five sessions before playing either one just became boring, if that.

 

 

First I thought I agreed, as to orks, life revolves around Fight! Bigger enemies! Moar DAKKA!!!!

But then I realized, a suitably sublime or reasonably enlightened GM / group could make an orky game into something brilliant, like "Deff Skwadron".

However, to pull off something like that, you wouldn't need an Ork! -rulebook, the freebooter rules from Into the Storm with a little extra creativity would be plenty.

Genestealer cults still get the short straw. I don't think all that many would be interested to play a game, where your victory means hideous terrors from space devour you horribly.



#9 Cifer

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:08 PM

@Darck Child

It's not like there's much else to discuss at this point, is it?

 

@Topic

While I can't see a genestealer cult being much fun (everything they can do, Black Crusade can do as well and IMO better), an Ork game could be fun. Of course it'd be beer&pretzel rpg that's best left at one or at most two books + GM screen, but it's not like that's necessarily a bad thing.



#10 CanadianPittbull

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:11 AM

H.B.M.C. said:

Baradiel said:

1.  Flesh out the other game lines first.





Really? Putting aside Black Crusade as it's the newest, each of the other three lines have heaps of books. I think they've all been 'fleshed out'. That's not say that they can't or won't release more, but it's not as if each line's got a Core Rulebook, a GM Kit and that's it.

BYE

 

 

Gotta agree with H.B.M.C. on this one. At one time a Core Rulebook, a GM's Kit  your imagination, and maybe even a players guide and a critter book was all you needed for a fully fleshed out line. The rest is all filler. 

I am really looking forward to this book and actually excited to see something like this come out. One book with loads of potential.



#11 Baradiel

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:43 AM

When I said "flesh out the other games", there was an entire paragraph that went with that explaining exactly what I meant.



#12 WittyDroog

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:06 PM

 Saying that Orks are one sided because they like to fight is like saying Chaos is one sided because they like to **** and pillage.

I'm just going to go out on a limb and assume that people haven't bothered reading anything about the orks beyond descriptions on GW products, but I could be wrong. In any case there's a lot of Ork society just like with any other Xeno society. It's true that orks are a rowdy bunch of football hooligans, but they don't all have a specific one-track-mind to krump things (although, it is a common thought). Some orks wants the flashiest and loudest dakka, others want to tinker with lots of turny gubbins and piston bits to create lumbering war machines, others are just plain weird and keep trying to channel Gork & Mork.

A lot of missions and campaigns one would run in a game like Black Crusade could also be ran in an Ork setting. Want to aquire more dakka? Loot an imperial stronghold. Lots of 'umies guarding the place? Maybe you need to be sneaky-like and maybe throw a couple of grots as a distraction. Maybe at times you need to barter teef with other clans, even the ones you really don't like because they said their trukks were faster than yours. 

 

I mean, we all have imagination, right? It's not difficult at all to think of compelling and highly entertaining missions for Orks.



#13 Santiago

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:25 PM

 An all ork setting would not work. While there are plenty of possibilities for roleplaying you are cutting out some of the essentials.
Things such as romans (among plants) are not possible. Also one part of roleplaying is the human aspect. And while orks could be fun for some group a lot of other would not appreciate it. Besides, an ork setting would also be to weird to be succesful.
And since FFG is still a business they well most often go with the popular choices. And while an Eldar (who are pretty alien themselves) setting might have been more in demand we do not know their plans for the future.



#14 WittyDroog

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:45 PM

 You're saying that because Orks cannot engage in "romans", or romance as I believe you're trying to say, then the game setting could not work? THAT'S the crucial flaw in the machine? And what do you mean "be too weird to be successful", you mean that it has to be offbeat and funny? So what? It turns out that comedy is a huge selling point of many games, especially RPGs. Paranoia, for example, is to this day my favorite of the comedic RPGs out there and I assure you it is a well loved game.

I just don't see how it's impossible to create a long-running campaign with it. Is there some universal law that states a campaign has to be dead serious that I'm missing? Due to terrible die rolls it always seems the Black Crusade game I'm currently playing in is a tragic comedy and yet we still have a lot of fun with it. I understand that Orks aren't for everyone, but neither are Eldar who are done-to-death space elves. Eldar, even in their quirks can have a campiagn fleshed out around them because I'd like to imagine GM's are crafty people who can create compelling stories, the same goes for Orks.



#15 Santiago

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:23 PM

I said things "such as romance" but I think I would have been clearer if I said drama.
And that is what the 40k setting imho is about, horror and drama.
Making tough choices and living with the consequences. Being tempted by the ruines powers and making a choice.
I simply don't see orks fitting that profile...



#16 Frankosis

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 04:11 AM

 

Well, that really touches on if you feel that the goofy Orks really belong in the 40k universe at all. They really do not seem to match the tone and feel of the other races, but there they are. 

For Dark Heresy I've preferred more of a horror style game and I stay away from Orks, it doesn't seem to fit.

For Deathwatch (the one time I ran at Gen Con) I featured them along with Eldar and played up their goofy nature and I think the players enjoyed them.

I absolutely believe you could have a successful Ork campaign but it would be with goofy players. Sadly, that would probably fit the players at our table much better than Dark Heresy....



#17 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:21 AM

Frankosis said:

 

Well, that really touches on if you feel that the goofy Orks really belong in the 40k universe at all. They really do not seem to match the tone and feel of the other races, but there they are.

Fundamentally, if every faction had the same tone and feel, we wouldn't need more than one.

Orks differ from Eldar who differ from Tyranids who differ from the forces of Chaos who differ from the Tau, and so forth.

One thing that is commonly overlooked when regarding Orks in 40k is the difference between our omniscient external perspective and the various internal perspectives within the setting.

Orks, from the perspective of those within the Imperium, are rampaging warlike barbarians... a perfect example of the everpresent savagery of Xenos and their perpetual yearning to destroy all that mankind has wrought. No matter where mankind goes in the galaxy, Orks are either already there, or will be soon, to tear down civilisation. An individual Ork, to a Guardsman, is a hulking brute that seems to have no concept of pain, which possesses the physical might and personal inclination to tear a man to pieces and devour the remains. Orks are the monsters at the edge of the civilised world... they are, almost more than any other force in the galaxy, the reason there is only war in the darkness of the far future.

Orks, from their own perspective, revel in battle - they wage war because they wish to, because the din of gunfire and explosions is something they crave on a fundamental level. Orks are lighthearted primarily because the things that make 40k such a grim place for humanity are the kinds of things that Orks desire.

Yes, they're often depicted in a humorous light... but that's more to do with depicting the universe from the Orks' own perspective than anything else. 40k has always had elements of dark humour within it, so whether or not you view the Orks as fitting says something about the way you view the setting as a whole...


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#18 WittyDroog

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:45 AM

 Right, WarHammer, both Fantasy and 40k, has always had a unique brand of dark humor. I mean look at the old Rogue Trader era 40k and tell me there's not some hilarious stuff in that. 

I understand that some people want to keep their game GRIMDARK and everyone has frowny faces because the universe is so bleak, but that's more unrealistic than many aspects of the setting. Since we're discussing Only War, there are going to be MANY chances for offbeat moments because these characters are human and humans tend to find humor in anything no matter how depraved (in fact, soldiers do it sometimes as a defense mechanism). And if you're telling me that Orks cannot unto a horrific encounter for your DH team then you're not putting much thought into how to use a giant frothing beast with crude bladed weapons.

 

You could always flavor Orks to drop their funny traits, because as NO-1 mentioned to citizens of the Imperium, Orks are not a laughing matter. They are monsters who will rip you to shreds, crush you under their boot, and take sick pride in obliterating large structures that could kill hundreds of Imperial citizens. They are the enemy. And their growth which has become a cosmic inevitability in this setting is terrifying to many in high seats. This also, in the same coin, mean that you could play as the Orks without enjoying their unique flavor because they love destruction and obtaining more (Like a lot of Chaos warbands), and they have just as many options for RPG classes and specialties thanks to their tabletop counterparts  that they are just as viable an option for a Xenos based book as the Eldar are. No one has yet provided me with a compelling reason as to why you could not run a campaign with them and I would argue you couldn't find that reason with almost every force present in the 40k universe (The only one I think could need work is Necrons, but even then you can just up the power level and have the players be Necrons who have retained most of their identity, basically becoming Rogue Trader: Undead Edition).

If I had to pick a race that didn't belong in 40k I would say the Tau. Because on a strict designer standpoint it's really weird to try and throw anime mecha into the 40k universe, but I still think they're fine and don't upset the delicate "tone" that people seem to hold as a sacred cow here. I think it's a unique change of pace that they're relatively young, imperialistic, and their own attitude is a fairly optimistic as opposed to straight up "do or die" survival. I would go even further to say that I would want a Tau rulebook as well as the others because I think there's potential in that. So just because a particular race rocks the boat on the tone of space knights fighting in flying space churches blasting space gregorian chants while burning space witches, doesn't mean that they don't belong in the setting nor that there's not enough material to play a compelling game with them.



#19 Eradico Pravus

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 04:44 PM

WittyDroog said:

If I had to pick a race that didn't belong in 40k I would say the Tau. Because on a strict designer standpoint it's really weird to try and throw anime mecha into the 40k universe, but I still think they're fine and don't upset the delicate "tone" that people seem to hold as a sacred cow here. I think it's a unique change of pace that they're relatively young, imperialistic, and their own attitude is a fairly optimistic as opposed to straight up "do or die" survival. I would go even further to say that I would want a Tau rulebook as well as the others because I think there's potential in that. So just because a particular race rocks the boat on the tone of space knights fighting in flying space churches blasting space gregorian chants while burning space witches, doesn't mean that they don't belong in the setting nor that there's not enough material to play a compelling game with them.

Well stated. Tau are the least interesting and "least-fitting" race, imo. Not a game-breaker as you note but I really hope they are not prominent in Only War because that will be really... lame.

 



#20 WittyDroog

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:55 PM

 I might have to disagree about them not being a key player in Only War strictly because the Tau are the most "regimented" army that aren't human, so I think that alone can play into some interesting war campaigns.






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