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Only War versus *Anything* Else? No ELDAR book...?


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#1 kwinland

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:11 AM

Howdy,

 

Was 'Only War' really necessary?  I had thought that originally this was a DH supp for the Imperial Guard.  Do we really need a whole GAME devoted to the IG?

 

YES, there is a lot of potential for roleplaying and action.  However, you can already play Guard characters and there are facets of the Imperium's military that are fleshed out enough to make gaming in this niche possible.

 

How about an Eldar core game?  There are 8-10 supps that you can derive EASILY from this (Craftworlds, Maiden Worlds, Aspects, Warlocks, pirates, Dark Eldar, adventures, etc), and as of now the Eldar are not playable as PCs.  Over the years I have heard a LOT of interest at the cons and on the boards for Eldar (and other Xenos), but never the Guard....

 

Missed opportunity, IMHO.

 

Ken



#2 Dulahan

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:36 AM

Can't entirely disagree.  Any statements that there isn't enough info for an RPG for Eldar is... disingenuous at best.  The 2nd Ed armybook alone was packed with dense info, and there's a lot more since.  Hell, the splat info for the Aspect Warriors would easily take up a large chunk of a corebook, especially adding in Warlocks, Rangers, and the inevitable FFG original Aspect.   At least 60-80 pages for splats alone, and then the general CG, all the rules, all the unique equipment.  The 'special' rules for Eldar... yeah, there's easily a corebook out there.  And unlike Humans the Eldar are MADE for being Splats! 

 

I mean, I'm a bit disappointed this won't be a Dark Heresy supplement like originally announced.  Though on the other hand I'm hopeful this will be a much cleaner, better version of the rules.  So win some, lose some... and I'll be in line at Gen Con for it.  But I was really hoping for Eldar, with Mechanicum a not so distant second.



#3 Ladegard

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:38 AM

On a counter note, while I really want a Mechanicus book, I want an Eldar book in much the same way I want a hole in my skull. 



#4 Dok Martin

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 12:27 PM

Ladegard said:

On a counter note, while I really want a Mechanicus book, I want an Eldar book in much the same way I want a hole in my skull. 

Aye. Eldar are not PC material in my opinion. They're ancient, enigmatic and scary. No one really knows what they're up to. I'd prefer if it stayed that way.



#5 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 12:44 PM

They are BLOODY ELVES!!!!!!!!!!11!one.

And pretending to be an elf is the most basic of all roleplaying skills.



#6 Leogun_91

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 12:45 PM

Ladegard said:

 

On a counter note, while I really want a Mechanicus book, I want an Eldar book in much the same way I want a hole in my skull. 

 

While I can see why you don't want an Eldar book placing it as equally grim as getting shot in the head seems out of proportions and sad.

 



#7 Dulahan

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 01:22 PM

AluminiumWolf said:

 

They are BLOODY ELVES!!!!!!!!!!11!one.

And pretending to be an elf is the most basic of all roleplaying skills.

 

 

 

No kidding.  -.-

 

Seriously, saying Eldar are unplayable ever is like saying you shouldn't roleplay a different race/gender/whatever.   Hell, they've got freaking novels from their viewpoint now, they're NOT that unknowable.  They're a heck of a lot more 'human' than Orks or Tau or Kroot.  Heck, they're more human than most Chaos PCs! 

 

Saying they're 'unplayable' just comes off as the worst sort of "WAAAH!  I DONT LIKE ELVES!!! SO YOU SHOULDNT EITHER!  WAAAAAAAAAH!" sort of attitude.



#8 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 01:30 PM

 Actually, I think a lot of the resistance comes from people who really like elves, and don't want the proles getting their grubby fingers all over them.



#9 MKX

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:41 PM

haha I dunno, compared to the other PC-playable xenos on offer, the eldar are probably closest to 'humans' with pointy ears in terms of society and comparatively 'friendly'. You could probably hide one under enough armour and get away with some kind of disguise for Mr Spess Elf.

Their cousins soon to be in a RT adventure are just evil bastards, (which has a certain appeal) but not exactly someone you want to share a room, spaceship, planet, anywhere actually. Unless you like waking up on a set of meat hooks being peeled like a carrot, then sold to his friendls for some more combat drugs, not really a question of if but 'when'.

Mr Ork is do-able as a player, except he's a noticably large, violent retard and more or less a liablity in a group as soon as the OX=I=, Arbites, Deathwatch turn up and covers everything and everyone in lots of fire. "Oh but he's sanctioned"... dont care, cover in fire and ask questions later. You really can't take an Ork anywhere except to the nearest warzone, in which case he'll most likely survive and your squishy human arse wont.

Much like the Kroot who's sort of somewhere in the middle of Dark Eldar - Orks by being about as subtle/user friendly as only an obviously nasty, meat eating barbarian with some kind of axe-gun can be. Jumps out of nowhere, f**ks some people up with his axe gun and bricks will be shat as anywhere in the Imperium will be screaming for help, the OX=I= will of course, cover large districts in fire.



#10 nifoc

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 06:24 PM

From my understanding, having played 40k for many years, GW has always stated that Eldar are NOT Space Elves and that they are as alien to humans as Orks are, in fact Orks are easier to understand. That does not make them impossible to play, but, unless the Eldar have changed considerably, it makes them very difficult to play.

WW did something like this with a couple of their games, Vampire and Werewolf, in which you played a human with a more primal, semi-separate personality on top of that. The difference is that there is no human side to start with here, and even in those games, few players actually took the time to consider what this difference in personality meant for their characters and the characters interaction with others. This makes it rahter pointless IMO, unless players actually take the time to understand a vastly different psychological profile you're just playing humans with pointy ears, and if you just want to cruise through space with a shuriken catapult there's always RT for that.

I'm not saying that those in this thread won't make the attempt, but the misunderstanding that Eldar are just Elves seems prevalent. GW has even made some attempts at making their Elves something other than humans with pointy ears, with mixed results.



#11 Gamgee

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:45 PM

We seriously need an Eldar book. Diversify a little here. It's getting a little stale. Also total bull. You play the Eldar in the table top game? Why not here? What kind of retarded discrimination is this? It's okay to play what you want, but if others want to play something different it's "bad". I call horse **** on your claims good sir.



#12 Dok Martin

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:53 PM

Gamgee said:

You play the Eldar in the table top game? Why not here?

Because roleplaying is about more than just moving painted figures around.

As for the "you can play anything, even a chinese tea cup!" argument: Of course you can. I just don't see how you will get inside the mind of such a creature.

Which is by the way the same reason why playing Elder vampires in V:TM always turned out to be ridiculous and not very believable.



#13 jordiver2

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:22 AM

 I haven't read up on the Eldar all too much, so I'm left with a question: Are the Eldar actually on a completely different level, mentally... or is that just mankind's perception of them? And does anybody have any idea how the Dark Eldar are going to be even as playable as Orks and Kroots? Or what would and Eldar game be about? Would we play some group of Eldar who hunt down Chaos worshippers and Warp artifacts to store inthe Black Library or somewhere similar? And am I recalling correctly that it is now forbidden for Eldar to perfect any art out of fear of the whole "we created Slaanesh" thing? So no Eldar may stick to 1 profession forever? So they'd have to "multiclass?" I just don't know. Woof, more questions than I thought.



#14 kwinland

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:13 AM

Dok Martin said:

Gamgee said:

 

You play the Eldar in the table top game? Why not here?

 

 

Because roleplaying is about more than just moving painted figures around.

As for the "you can play anything, even a chinese tea cup!" argument: Of course you can. I just don't see how you will get inside the mind of such a creature.

Which is by the way the same reason why playing Elder vampires in V:TM always turned out to be ridiculous and not very believable.

Roleplaying games have catered to players interested in alien and "odd" characters for 35+ years.  Just because you do not think that they can be played well (I agree, it is a challenge), does not mean it should not be or cannot be done.

There have been a number of Eldar covered in 40K fiction - sometimes portrayed as inscrutably alien, sometimes not.  It is not harder to get into the mind of an Eldar as often presented by the canon fiction than it is a member of the Mechanicus, a Chaos warlord, experienced Rogue Trader, etc.  All of which you *can* currently play.

 

That's the challenge of good roleplaying - to play and portray something unique and different.  Of *course* it can be handled poorly and ridiculously - that said, I have seen FBI agents, medieval knights, and modern military characters played in a ridiculous and not very believable fashion. :)

 

It all comes down to the player and game.

 

Cheers,

 

Ken

 

PS - Yeah, I have never seen a "believable" elder Vampire character in 18 years.  It is a tough sell, which is why I have never seen many to begin with.



#15 kwinland

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:26 AM

jordiver2 said:

 I haven't read up on the Eldar all too much, so I'm left with a question: Are the Eldar actually on a completely different level, mentally... or is that just mankind's perception of them? And does anybody have any idea how the Dark Eldar are going to be even as playable as Orks and Kroots? Or what would and Eldar game be about? Would we play some group of Eldar who hunt down Chaos worshippers and Warp artifacts to store inthe Black Library or somewhere similar? And am I recalling correctly that it is now forbidden for Eldar to perfect any art out of fear of the whole "we created Slaanesh" thing? So no Eldar may stick to 1 profession forever? So they'd have to "multiclass?" I just don't know. Woof, more questions than I thought.

 

Howdy,

 

Some canon fiction portray the Eldar as DEEPLY alien and inscrutable, others less so.  They are as playable as pretty much any other fantasy or alien race in any other roleplaying game. :)

 

I think that the wise idea would be do start out with a "vanilla" Eldar core book, potentially with classes like Warlock, Aspect Warriors, Pirate, etc.  The smart focus would be on Outcast - jack-of-all-trades that have a reason to wander about and interact with aliens and the Imperium.  You could try a Dark Eldar supp, that that has the limitations of a Black Crusade game - all the players are Dark Eldar, or none are. 

 

The game could be about *anyting* - exploring Maiden/Crone worlds, trying to "understand" the Imperium, thwarting Chaos, becoming a Pirate, being an Eldar in a RT retinue, etc, etc.  I believe that the Eldar switch professions several times over their long lives simply because their lives are LONG.  As far as multi-class, you could handle it like DH - work up one class/tree, then stop and work another.  Aside from Thorpe's really bad Eldar books (IMO), I think that you wouldn't have to do this much - the Eldar seem to focus on professions for decades/centuries, not over a few adventures or years. :)

 

I would think that an Eldar theme would support a core book, and then supps dealing with Aspect Warriors, Advanced Classes, Pirates/Ships, Craftworlds, Maiden Worlds, your obligatory adventure trilogy or two, etc.  I think that it is a real missed opportunity.

 

My 2-cents.

 

Ken



#16 Psion

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:29 AM

Dok Martin said:

Aye. Eldar are not PC material in my opinion. They're ancient, enigmatic and scary. No one really knows what they're up to. I'd prefer if it stayed that way.

 

Not saying they would require an entirely different mindset then a servant of the Imperium but how can they be so incomprehendible to the human mind if human minds created them and write stories from their viewpoint in both books and the Dawn of War video game?  So most roleplayers don't have the skills to play convincing Eldar; okay I'll buy that.  Given that I have seen roleplayers lacking the skills to play convincing Space Marines, regular citizens of the Imperium, or really anything other then themselves with stats, I can believe that.  But at the same time, that's the fault of the player, not the game.



#17 Dulahan

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:50 AM

jordiver2 said:

 I haven't read up on the Eldar all too much, so I'm left with a question: Are the Eldar actually on a completely different level, mentally... or is that just mankind's perception of them? And does anybody have any idea how the Dark Eldar are going to be even as playable as Orks and Kroots? Or what would and Eldar game be about? Would we play some group of Eldar who hunt down Chaos worshippers and Warp artifacts to store inthe Black Library or somewhere similar? And am I recalling correctly that it is now forbidden for Eldar to perfect any art out of fear of the whole "we created Slaanesh" thing? So no Eldar may stick to 1 profession forever? So they'd have to "multiclass?" I just don't know. Woof, more questions than I thought.

 

No, they really aren't.  Books  and such will SAY they are.  But even that often comes from the viewpoint of them and I think it comes off as real arrogance as opposed to actuality.  Fundamentally they have the same desires:  They love, they hate, they fight off Chaos, they defend their homes. 

The "Alien" comes most especially from the Aspect Paths and how they can be lost on them, or from Dark Eldars casual barbarism (which is an aspect of its own).  The bits that are just different enough.  they may say 'MORE ALIEN THAN ORKS RAWR!' but they are never, EVER portrayed that way, just as super advanced.

 

And seriously, there's far more alien stuff for characters out there.  Tekumel lets you play as 4 sided face thingies with multiple arms and legs.  Hell, human Tekumel is every bit as alien as Eldar are ever made out to be.



#18 klaymen_sk

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:58 AM

I'd rather have proppa Orky rulebook, than Eldar.

They have quite a few choices for "careers", their equipment can be "kustomized" in many ways and while 40k is a grimdark sci-fi, some light-hearted Orky fun would be appreciated (at least by me).


"To each of us falls a task. And all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand in line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best: we die standing."

-General Sturnn, Cadian 412th regiment


#19 Psion

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:17 AM

jordiver2 said:

 I haven't read up on the Eldar all too much, so I'm left with a question: Are the Eldar actually on a completely different level, mentally... or is that just mankind's perception of them? And does anybody have any idea how the Dark Eldar are going to be even as playable as Orks and Kroots? Or what would and Eldar game be about? Would we play some group of Eldar who hunt down Chaos worshippers and Warp artifacts to store inthe Black Library or somewhere similar? And am I recalling correctly that it is now forbidden for Eldar to perfect any art out of fear of the whole "we created Slaanesh" thing? So no Eldar may stick to 1 profession forever? So they'd have to "multiclass?" I just don't know. Woof, more questions than I thought.

I'm not that familiar with them either though based on some of the other comments I'd have to say that they can't be any less alien then the post-human Space Marines and FFG did a decent enough job to address my criticism with that RPG.  As for Dark Eldar... yeah I think even after Black Crusade most of us here are going to have to take a big fat PASS! to the Dark Eldar.  Some aspects of their society might be cool but for the most part... yeah I think I'll pass on them thank you.

Off the top of my head, Eldar are older and have lost infinitely more in their fall from grace then the Imperium.  Mankind claims to rule the galaxy and we might have for a short while... sort of.  The Eldar though are the only race in the lore that could make that remark and probably have meant it in their heyday.  They have a lot that a band of Eldar adventurers could recover or preserve.  Rogue Traders uncover Eldar artifacts and try to peddle them off to the cold trade or the Inquisition all the time.



#20 Santiago

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:33 AM

klaymen_sk said:

I'd rather have proppa Orky rulebook, than Eldar.

They have quite a few choices for "careers", their equipment can be "kustomized" in many ways and while 40k is a grimdark sci-fi, some light-hearted Orky fun would be appreciated (at least by me).



That would be one source book I would seriously NOT buy. IMHO the ork does not fit the 40k setting, comedy and grim dark do not go hand in hand.






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