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#1 beowulf101

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:44 AM

Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Black Crusade are enough.  Black Crusade should have been the end of the 40K line and the existing products expanded and built on.  All things considered, four RPG games in the same setting already pushes the boundary.  Five?  I'm not buying.  The idea that throwing out content and sooner or later something will be a success is a real turn off.  If anything, build what's already out and then learn the lessons of this set of mechanics and let's move on to 40K second edition - an edition that hopefully means the release of one core book, the unification of the disparate Psi powers and releases additional material for that one book.  In short, there's no need for what's happening, and I personally am rather angry with the release of another rulebook.  

 

I don't want a flame war with anyone on here, this is my own personal sentiment.  There are better ways of doing things, especially when the books cost so much - enough already. 



#2 Huros

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:52 AM

 @beowolf

 

You are not wrong. this was supposed to be a suppliment for Dark Heresy. this just goes to show that DH is on the back burner. would be interesting to see the licence agreement with GW for the rpg system. wonder if theree is a minimum number or time for DH support. also i wonder if there is a higher per supplement for DH as opposed to the FFG created lines. 

 

I know i am being cynical and i hate myself for it but i will probably buy this wretched and obvious business tactic. I will feel violated and will resent paying the increased cost for a new core rule book over a supplemnet as it was originally billed as. 

I want more suppements for the first series, rogue trader and DH especially. they could have done a Mechanicum rule book. That may have been a more original core book and may be the next.

 

just dont want to see the swathes of cut and paste added to the supplement we were promised.

 

GRRR where is my wallet.



#3 Maese Mateo

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:58 AM

beowulf101 said:

All things considered, four RPG games in the same setting already pushes the boundary. 

 

It worked really well for White-Wolf, and I think it works fine for Warhammer 40k as well.



#4 beowulf101

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:04 AM

Maese Mateo said:

beowulf101 said:

 

All things considered, four RPG games in the same setting already pushes the boundary. 

 

 

 

It worked really well for White-Wolf, and I think it works fine for Warhammer 40k as well.

 

Unfortunately it didn't.  CCP laid off almost all former White Wolf staff and have had to go print on demand and re-release "Classic World of Darkness" (As opposed to "Old World of Darkness" which is what it was called and what it still is) and they have to resort to kickstart programs to get product out.  The IP is now with CCP.  White Wolf as it was known is dead.  I hope they survive what they're going through, but their business model failed them. 



#5 Maese Mateo

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:26 AM

beowulf101 said:

Unfortunately it didn't.  CCP laid off almost all former White Wolf staff and have had to go print on demand and re-release "Classic World of Darkness" (As opposed to "Old World of Darkness" which is what it was called and what it still is) and they have to resort to kickstart programs to get product out.  The IP is now with CCP.  White Wolf as it was known is dead.  I hope they survive what they're going through, but their business model failed them. 

 

It worked well for them for 20 years, and I don't think that the fact they made separate lines had anything to do with their actual finantial problems. I think it's just that people got tired and they couldn't really think on any other gameline to release.

 

V20 sold very well, and I'm sure W20 this year will do it too.

 

While it's true that indepent game lines have some issues, it also works well to introduce new people to your products, since they don't have to buy books they don't like, you can just buy the books of the line you like and ignore the others.

 

Although, to be honest, I would have liked to see an Eldar RPG rather than Only War. Well, maybe next year.



#6 Braddoc

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:27 AM

To reply to Beowulf's idea of having a 2nd Edition W40k RPG serie, I would rather spend 50$ on another corebook than I can mix with any other W40k games, than 50$ on the 2nd ed core book, than 30-40$ for each and everyone one of the 'spin-off' corebook so I might ahve the complete gaming experience.

 

Oh and of course, scrapping all my previously bought W40k books, which I am not looking forward to.


My 40k Campaigns page

http://Dark-heresy.wikispaces.com


#7 BrotherCaptainMagni

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:39 AM

Had heard a rumor that FFG was going through some restructing, I suppose this is proof of it. Honestly I don't mind the idea of them expanding upon the Imperial Guard with their own corebook, though it's somewhat annoying as they already have deathwatch, what I'm guessing to be very simliar in feel game. Now what drew alot of people into the Warhammer 40K RPG line is their love of either the IP itself or their love of the tabletop miniature wargame, so I don't mind them restructing this release as a stand alone corebook, especially when they get to the vehicle supplement like they did with Rites of Battle and Into the Storm as that was going to be my main reason for getting a DH supplement when DH is the one game I don't own. Also keep in mind that DH started not in fantasy flight but with Black Library and while they've kept alot of the core mechanics, they've changed a fair bit as well so far as things like psychic powers go.



#8 BrotherCaptainMagni

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:39 AM

Had heard a rumor that FFG was going through some restructing, I suppose this is proof of it. Honestly I don't mind the idea of them expanding upon the Imperial Guard with their own corebook, though it's somewhat annoying as they already have deathwatch, what I'm guessing to be very simliar in feel game. Now what drew alot of people into the Warhammer 40K RPG line is their love of either the IP itself or their love of the tabletop miniature wargame, so I don't mind them restructing this release as a stand alone corebook, especially when they get to the vehicle supplement like they did with Rites of Battle and Into the Storm as that was going to be my main reason for getting a DH supplement when DH is the one game I don't own. Also keep in mind that DH started not in fantasy flight but with Black Library and while they've kept alot of the core mechanics, they've changed a fair bit as well so far as things like psychic powers go.



#9 BrotherCaptainMagni

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:40 AM

Sorry bout double post.



#10 Maese Mateo

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:42 AM

Braddoc said:

To reply to Beowulf's idea of having a 2nd Edition W40k RPG serie, I would rather spend 50$ on another corebook than I can mix with any other W40k games, than 50$ on the 2nd ed core book, than 30-40$ for each and everyone one of the 'spin-off' corebook so I might ahve the complete gaming experience.

 

Oh and of course, scrapping all my previously bought W40k books, which I am not looking forward to.

 

+1

 

A second editions means just buying all the same books all over again with some rules adjustment (and we all know that's going to end up with errata anyway). I preffer to spend money on new stuff, rather than on the same stuff I have.



#11 Maese Mateo

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:44 AM

BrotherCaptainMagni said:

Honestly I don't mind the idea of them expanding upon the Imperial Guard with their own corebook, though it's somewhat annoying as they already have deathwatch,

 

But on the other hand you are gaining possible customers who don't like Deathwatch but find Only War a cool idea (like me).



#12 macd21

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:09 AM

beowulf101 said:

 

Unfortunately it didn't.  CCP laid off almost all former White Wolf staff and have had to go print on demand and re-release "Classic World of Darkness" (As opposed to "Old World of Darkness" which is what it was called and what it still is) and they have to resort to kickstart programs to get product out.  The IP is now with CCP.  White Wolf as it was known is dead.  I hope they survive what they're going through, but their business model failed them. 

 

*snort* no. That's both an incomplete and inaccurate assessment of White Wolf, past and present. They are currently one of the strongest RPG companies on the market. And they moved to PoD specifically to divorce themselves from the publishing model you're advocating, freeing them to publish as and when they wished instead of 'building' on their existing lines (translation: release more and more crud) until the fans won't buy any more and they replace it with a new edition (allowing them to release the same old crud again).



#13 Maldaron

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:22 AM

Entirely not needed, as a game of its own at least. I'd imagine whatever this book is going to have to offer will be best used to supplement the already existing games.

Nothing more to say really.



#14 Smaggler

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:36 AM

DH - CSI Investigation

RT  - Kingdom Building

DW - Superheros

BC - Playing the bad guys

Only War - ??? 

While I'm sure it'll bring with it some new interesting mechanics, I'm not sure its more than a supplement.  I can't think of how this adds to the list above.  I guess RPG Mercenaries on a less than Hero level, but isn't there something they could've offered that didn't overlap?



#15 Quak0r

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:41 AM

 I'm sorry, but this seems extremely out of place. It would have made very much sense as a DH addition. But as a stand alone, no. While obviously i'll be following what this is all about, i'm incredebly sceptical about this.



#16 Agravane

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:43 AM

 As someone who is currently running two different campaigns using an Imperial Guard setting, I can understand why this was upgraded from a Dark Heresy supplement to its own system. Dark Heresy doesn't always work too well in terms of rules/mechanics for resolving combat for a guard squad versus a group of acolytes. I've been using a lot of rules borrowed and adjusted from Deathwatch, but it doesn't always balance out perfectly. A new system will definitely help, and it's also another case of buy the book if you want the system or don't if you don't want to use it. How is it particularly different than a supplement? I don't remember the core books being particularly more expensive than some of the larger supplement books.



#17 Fabian Grax

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:47 AM

Enh, I'm just wondering if this rulebook was really necessary. Your characters in Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy, and et al. can have a lot of freedom to do what they want but as a Guardsman? It'll be all, "Take that hill!" and "Yes sir!" Maybe it could work but I can't feel myself working up a hankering to play some nobody in a trench.



#18 KommissarK

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:50 AM

Smaggler said:

DH - CSI Investigation

RT  - Kingdom Building

DW - Superheros

BC - Playing the bad guys

Only War - ??? 

While I'm sure it'll bring with it some new interesting mechanics, I'm not sure its more than a supplement.  I can't think of how this adds to the list above.  I guess RPG Mercenaries on a less than Hero level, but isn't there something they could've offered that didn't overlap?

Band of brothers?

DW is nice with its high powered heroic space knights fighting for honour and what not, but there is something to be said about playing characters as the real heroes of the imperium.

"Alright men, all we got are 4 lasguns, 2 charge packs, and 1 krak grenade. We've been ordered to take that bunker, so by the Emperor, we're gonna do this!"

If left only in the DH system, you basically would lose alot of resolution, mainly forcing players to be some variation of guardsman. Techpriests and psykers could be present, but scum, arbites, and to a certain extent adepts would be out of place. Clerics would need a new xp table. Battle Sisters would be a tad bit too effective in a combat only setting.

Not to mention that DH would not codify a system for choosing your guardsman's home company (Catachan, Cadian, Tallarn, Mordian, Krieg, Vallhallan, etc.).

The actual fighting of a "war" over say the more surgical style of Deathwatch could also come up. Players could in theory affect troop movements, and engage in campaigns over a greater distance.

Also, a setting where you're put through hell, and surviving to the bitter end is an actual accomplishment is rather cool.



#19 beowulf101

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:00 AM

macd21 said:

beowulf101 said:

 

 

Unfortunately it didn't.  CCP laid off almost all former White Wolf staff and have had to go print on demand and re-release "Classic World of Darkness" (As opposed to "Old World of Darkness" which is what it was called and what it still is) and they have to resort to kickstart programs to get product out.  The IP is now with CCP.  White Wolf as it was known is dead.  I hope they survive what they're going through, but their business model failed them. 

 

 

 

*snort* no. That's both an incomplete and inaccurate assessment of White Wolf, past and present. They are currently one of the strongest RPG companies on the market. And they moved to PoD specifically to divorce themselves from the publishing model you're advocating, freeing them to publish as and when they wished instead of 'building' on their existing lines (translation: release more and more crud) until the fans won't buy any more and they replace it with a new edition (allowing them to release the same old crud again).

 

*SNORT* Laying off almost your entire staff?  Downsizing and altering a direction in the way that they have is survival, not growth.  Pull off their financial report and records, it's public domain information, as is CCP's.  Do Fantasy Flight as well while you're at it, you'll see the diffefrence between a 'strong' and a 'weak' company. 

That was a very, very uninformed comment.  



#20 Agravane

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:14 AM

KommissarK said:

 

 

Band of brothers?

DW is nice with its high powered heroic space knights fighting for honour and what not, but there is something to be said about playing characters as the real heroes of the imperium.

"Alright men, all we got are 4 lasguns, 2 charge packs, and 1 krak grenade. We've been ordered to take that bunker, so by the Emperor, we're gonna do this!"

If left only in the DH system, you basically would lose alot of resolution, mainly forcing players to be some variation of guardsman. Techpriests and psykers could be present, but scum, arbites, and to a certain extent adepts would be out of place. Clerics would need a new xp table. Battle Sisters would be a tad bit too effective in a combat only setting.

Not to mention that DH would not codify a system for choosing your guardsman's home company (Catachan, Cadian, Tallarn, Mordian, Krieg, Vallhallan, etc.).

The actual fighting of a "war" over say the more surgical style of Deathwatch could also come up. Players could in theory affect troop movements, and engage in campaigns over a greater distance.

Also, a setting where you're put through hell, and surviving to the bitter end is an actual accomplishment is rather cool.

 

Pretty much this. For some folks, mortal humans appeal more than space marines. I imagine this system will be quite similar to Deathwatch in some respects (building your own regiments, setting out on discrete missions with discrete objectives, etc). Really looking forward to seeing how it's made.






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