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Mallumo's DE Hand Destruction (The Way of the Empty Hand) &etc.


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#1 cyberfunk

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 05:28 PM

First off, thanks to Mallumo for an awesome decklist and write-up! I really like this version, especially the Nagash/Promenade combo. I might opt for Vanguards of Woe over Vile Sorcs for their "go ahead and remove me" effect while Quest-sitting. I'd also be tempted to sneak in slave Pens for a little more mileage from Raiding Ships and general silliness potential. Caught the Scent is the only cut I'm seeing, or maybe the third Makurth. I'm kind of tempted by Hellbane's Raiders, too, but still very much on the fence.

In general, it seems like there are a lot of ways to go with DE discard right now. Sorceress Convent/Raiding Ships instantly made hand discard viable, but I'm seeing at least three other broad archetypes, and lots of options within those:

-Turbo Quest with 3x Ancient Map to get multiple Ships in play early, plus 9-12 DE supports and Walking Sac/Vanguards. The targeted discard/Promenade doesn't work here, but you have a better shot at keeping their hand empty on your turn.

-Deck/Hand Hybrid Discard w/ Promenade. Discarding from their deck can let you see more cards, and doesn't require them to have cards in hand for you to hit stuff with Promenade.

-Mostly-deck discard with a little hand discard. Here you now have three options:
=Old-school Plague Monk w/ max spells.
=Bannermen of the Crag - Probably w/ necro/free units and Sacrificial Pyre. Like Plague Monk, needs to hit two of its guy a lot of the time.
=Hodge-Podge with some combo of Monk, Bannerman, and utility stuff like Bathe in the Cauldron, multiple Barbed Snares, possibly Infiltrate!.

Barbed Snares can be a really nasty finisher, especailly with Whip the Slaves in the deck. Being able to play them in Kingdom and immediately draw them back up again (and again with Lash) means you can get a pretty big chunk in one fell swoop.

I also think the presense of off-turn discard stuff like Bathe in the Cauldrn and Gaze of Nagash makes it easier for discard decks to play combat tricks like Invoke Kaine's Wrath and Take Captive, which haven't really made the cut in the past. Not sure which versions of discard could make the best use of them, but in theory extending the game with stall tactics is a very good thing for discard strategies.

Anybody else have lists?



#2 Ellyrik

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:13 PM

 I think hand-discard and deck-discard don't mix well because they have no real synergy. I support Mallumo when he explains that hand-discard has its limits and has to be combined with table control. I personnaly made a deck fully oriented to hand-discard (during mine and opponent's turn) but i couldn't manage cards in quest zone and hand-discard was not enough.

VitmaminT already played hand-discard (rakarth, shades) in his DE control deck. Maybe would he play Hag Queen or Sight of Nagash now.



#3 Mallumo

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:57 PM

I'm glad you liked the article, cyberfunk. And you have some good ideas on what might improve the deck. That's was I aiming for - a good deck that people can feel encouraged to improve upon. And I'm happy we're finally at a stage where for many strategies, you really do have to decide which cards work best for you. There was a time when you assembled everything related to in this case hand discard, and a few staples, and you'd be at 30, 40 cards and wondering what else to put in. It's not like that at all anymore, for just about every deck type. When it came to the Empty Hand deck, it felt strange to me to leave out cards like Slave Pens, Thief of Essence or Walking Sacrifice, but you can't have everything anymore, if you don't want a huge deck.

 

As for Vile Sorceress, I think she's come out of fashion a bit, but I've always really appreciated her especially against rush decks. I considered Vanguard of Woe, but it's one of those cards where often ultimately your opponent gets to decide when the effect triggers, and this usually means he gets to decide if he'll suffer the effect at all - he can wait with destroying it until the discard effect doesn't bother him. For this reason, I prefer Seasoned Corsair over Corsairs of Ghrond - you get to decide when you play it, instead of your opponent deciding when he destroys it.

 

I have to agree with Ellyrik when it comes to mixing hand and deck discard. It's tempting, for the effects that don't care how a card was discarded, but you have to give up control over what's in play almost completely, that's a high risk.



#4 cyberfunk

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:07 AM

Agree that it's easy to go into kid-in-candy-store mode and wind up with 75 cards and no reliable plan. Although I'm not sure what the ceiling is on these types of decks. If Dwarves and Dark Elves are the factions to beat, I think I might prefer an edge in the card-attrition war to a slight edge in the "zany 5-hammer opening contest." Especially in decks that aren't really focusing on early-game economy (not DE's strong suit at any rate). Chaos and Dwarves have a harder decision, since they sometimes go long, but also want to connect opening-hand combos like Tunnel Fighter/Tomb and Spawn/Gor, etc. Har Ganeth/Sacrifice isn't quite in that league. 

No doubt that Vile Sorc is solid for getting Hekarti started against rush. I actually like her a lot in general and could see making room for her. Still, you've got Shades as your only hammer-making card to pair with Contested Village and no Walking Sacrifice for a free loyalty. Makes for some dicey openings, especially going second when a removal card could take out your entire start. Admittedly, the mid/late-game effect of Vanguards is less without Slave Pens to trigger them at will. Tough decisions!

I don't have a particular list for a deck/hand hybrid discard strategy, but it does seem like they at least potentially have synergy beyond just the Promenade of Malice/Seeking New Slaves vein of stuff. One of the natural counters to hand control is a large Quest (with lots of supports), which comes with a decking risk. Also, hand discard tends to have a bit of a stalling effect, which tends to push the game longer, which tends to make a decking decision more likely. The more I think about Barbed Snares, the more I think it might be a totally sufficient decking package by itself, or nearly by itself. Maybe I'll come up with a list in the next few days. 

Thanks for the comments!



#5 grille

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:47 PM

Vile Sorceress came out of fashion when empire moving decks were present but right now moving isn't a threat anymore. Vile Sorceress works also great with Blood Dragon Knight as it allows you to take out a 3HP unit (Sorcerer) so you can "save" a Seasoned Corsairs for something else.

I think the hand discard approach is better than milling although Barbed Snares are awesome when used multiple times per turn with hand drawing effects. Either way each decktype needs enough control to manage the board as the opponents will surely try to play as much cards as he can when he knows he'll loose them.

Thank you Mallumo for your effort in deck presenting recently. Your Orc and HE decks were also great.



#6 JudJackalTom

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:13 AM

Hi All,

I am totally new in WHI but I have something similar DE deck just built. I saw below somebody has written is no synergy if you play both hand and deck discard. I think it is really nice synergy when your opponent should draw more cards from his/her deck and put the focus in his/her quest zone to improve if wants to draw more cards and just make shorter and shorter his/her own deck. It's cool. But anyway this forum is really gives very good ideas to the deck building.

Cheers/Thanks



#7 Vitamin T

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:07 PM

Excellent article sir!

 

Do you have any issues activating raiding ships consistently with this list?  I have been working on something similar that had like 10-12 DE supports and I still felt I couldnt fire raiding ships as consistently as I'd like.  The other discard almost always worked better for me.

 

TL



#8 Mallumo

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:47 PM

Thanks again to everyone who likes the article, you're making me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

 

Raiding Ships doesn't fire often in this deck, no. Not even if your opponent is considerate enough to destroy your Promenade so you can play another one. If you have the loyalty though, it doesn't take up any space in the deck, so I thought there'd be no harm in including it, and it does seem to work out okay for me. In many games it will be just that, a card that does nothing but didn't cost you anything either, but from time to time it does net you a couple additional discards.

 

I could see it being the first card to go for some when they twist the deck to their own taste, but I'd always consider leaving it in, particularly if Slave Pens gets to replace a unit or tactic, or if Walking Sacrifice and its free loyalty makes an appearance.



#9 JudJackalTom

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:05 AM

I am answering from my work place right now so I have not got my deck front of me but I do not use Raiding Ships, but I use a neutral Quest which is give you quite good chance to win the game on your Quest zone. Sorry I do not know the name of the quest but its unique quest from the Core Set.



#10 SenhorDeTodoOMal

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:34 AM

JudJackalTom said:

 

I am answering from my work place right now so I have not got my deck front of me but I do not use Raiding Ships, but I use a neutral Quest which is give you quite good chance to win the game on your Quest zone. Sorry I do not know the name of the quest but its unique quest from the Core Set.

 

 

 

Infiltrate!



#11 Doc9

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:33 PM

Well…the DE tactic ''Fast Moving Storm''► looks like it''s going to make for a nasty hand destro deck. Ouch.






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