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Accurate Storm Bolters?


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#1 Kain McDogal

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:37 PM

After some good roleplaying and clever use of his Bolter's capabilities, I finally granted our Tac the Master of Arms Distinction with Accurate and Tearing as I found the other Special Qualities to be over the top or inappropriate for most weapons, but now he requesitioned a Storm Bolter and I really don't know how to handle Accurate together with the Storm Quality.

Should he get the extra 1D10 damage when used with the Aim Action and scoring 2 degrees of success for both hits, for only one hit or is Accurate inapplicable for Storm Bolters at all because although they can fire Single Shots they always score 2 hits?

I'm tending to allow Accurate on SB and to allocate the first extra 1D10 Damage (2 degrees of success) to the first hit and if he gains a second 1D10 Damage (4 degrees of success) to the second hit. I know this will put a SB at a disadvantage to the stopping power of a standard Bolter with the Accurate Quality (the higher the damage for a single hit is, the more powerful it is to overcome the enemy's Toughness Bonus) but this should be offset by scoring 2 hits even on a single shot.

Any suggestions?



#2 Kshatriya

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:25 AM

I'd just completely homebrew how the storm bolter worked, but that's just me. It throws out more hits more reliably than a heavy bolter with the errata.



#3 DJSunhammer

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 08:21 PM

 I wouldn't allow the Storm Bolter+Accurate personally, that is just too much power in one cheap piece of wargear.



#4 Kain McDogal

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:14 PM

DJSunhammer said:

 

 I wouldn't allow the Storm Bolter+Accurate personally, that is just too much power in one cheap piece of wargear.

 

 

That would be nerfing down a RAW after the player has spent 1000 xp for the distintinction which clearly says that it works with all weapons with the name Astartes in it and this would be unfair. Nerfing down something afterwards because the GM can't deal with it is a sign of helplessness because it's just to easy to say "No"!

As I have written earlier I thought of don't allowing it myself, but not because it maybe to powerful, but because it will generate a situation which won't be covered by the rules. If I can't find any other solution (based on constructive suggestions) this would be the last option but it shouldn't be the first.

 



#5 Nathiel

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:54 PM

I think the most fair way is what you suggested in the first place with splitting the bonus dice. The base damage of a SB is enough to get through most armour, and if it isn't then you need something bigger than a bolter, storm or otherwise.



#6 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 02:25 AM

Accurate only works on single, aimed shots. So apply the accurate bonus only to the first round.

I would argue that "sniping" with a storm bolter is a waste of a storm bolter. 



#7 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 04:12 AM

ItsUncertainWho said:

Accurate only works on single, aimed shots.

I say just make it not work with the storm bolter for this reason. I would say you can't be accurate with a storm bolter for the same reason you can't with a submachine gun, i.e., it would be stupid.



#8 KommissarK

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 04:26 AM

ItsUncertainWho said:

Accurate only works on single, aimed shots. So apply the accurate bonus only to the first round.

I would argue that "sniping" with a storm bolter is a waste of a storm bolter. 

While yes, accurate does clearly only benefit single shot firing modes, the Storm quality creates a very strange situation here. It is firing "single shot," but the Storm quality turns that into effectively two shots.

I've seen this exact question before, and my response would be to create a new "mode" of fire, where the storm bolter only fires a single shot, and the Accurate trait is represented by a particular ease of aiming down one of the barrels of the storm bolter. In other words, when fired in "accurate" mode, remove the Storm quality. Of course this creates strange ammo tracking concerns.

Still, obviously, a full powered Accurate+storm quality (2x SB shots with +2d10 due to aimed shooting goodness) is simply too effective, even for 1k xp. It provides both a rate of fire > 1, and an impressive amount of dice dropped (which greatly increases the chances of righteous fury). Really, the boosted RF chance here is the greatest threat. 4 more dice dropped is practically (I really don't want to have to recall prob-stat here) a 40% increase in RF chance, which once again is significant (to a point of being too good for 1k xp).

This is something the player should of run by the GM long before even attempting to save up the XP to get it. Personally I would of made efforts to dissuade a player from putting me into this situation.

As a random thought: I don't have the book with me, do those rules allow for scatter to be placed on a storm bolter? Now that would be fun to calculate the total number of hits for...



#9 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 05:44 AM

KommissarK said:

While yes, accurate does clearly only benefit single shot firing modes, the Storm quality creates a very strange situation here. It is firing "single shot," but the Storm quality turns that into effectively two shots.

I've seen this exact question before, and my response would be to create a new "mode" of fire, where the storm bolter only fires a single shot, and the Accurate trait is represented by a particular ease of aiming down one of the barrels of the storm bolter. In other words, when fired in "accurate" mode, remove the Storm quality. Of course this creates strange ammo tracking concerns.

Still, obviously, a full powered Accurate+storm quality (2x SB shots with +2d10 due to aimed shooting goodness) is simply too effective, even for 1k xp. It provides both a rate of fire > 1, and an impressive amount of dice dropped (which greatly increases the chances of righteous fury). Really, the boosted RF chance here is the greatest threat. 4 more dice dropped is practically (I really don't want to have to recall prob-stat here) a 40% increase in RF chance, which once again is significant (to a point of being too good for 1k xp).

This is something the player should of run by the GM long before even attempting to save up the XP to get it. Personally I would of made efforts to dissuade a player from putting me into this situation.

As a random thought: I don't have the book with me, do those rules allow for scatter to be placed on a storm bolter? Now that would be fun to calculate the total number of hits for...

I think the idea that to use the Accurate trait of this super storm bolter you lose the storm quality on single shot mode is probably the best way to deal with it.

 

I had toyed around with a RT murder servitor armed with a full auto Flechette Cannon (heavy shotgun with scatter and storm). It was mean and very efficient at it's job of annihilating large swaths of low armored enemy crews. I ended up just making a DoS chart just so I wouldn't have to think so hard with the calculations. I never did  turn it loose on the players.

I think the stats I made were: Murder Servitor Flechette Cannon "Meat Grinder"- Range 30, RoF - 5 10, 1d10+6 Pen 0, Clip 500, Storm, Scatter

If I recall it was also armed with a flame thrower, close combat weapon of some kind, and a krak grenade launcher for making doorways. It was designed to deal with my pre-DW version of hordes.



#10 Kain McDogal

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 05:48 AM

KommissarK said:

 

As a random thought: I don't have the book with me, do those rules allow for scatter to be placed on a storm bolter? Now that would be fun to calculate the total number of hits for...

Yes, they do. Thankfully the GM has the last word about what 2 Weapon Qualities the Master of Arms Distintiction provides. I thougt Accurate and Tearing will be the 2 which can be added to most weapons without any difficulties but I guess I was wrong. You could also choose Felling (1) and Blast (2) if you want to create  a One-Man-Army and the SM won't have to requsiition most special ammunition types in the future.

I think I will stick to my first thought and split the dice between both shots. This sounds fair enough without overpowering the other weapons, after all he was granted this Distinction because he came up with some very clever strategies to exploit the capabilities of his Bolter to the max, so his character is a true Master of Arms, but believe me, I won't do this again.
 

Thank you all for your suggestions.



#11 DJSunhammer

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 04:01 PM

I never did like that distinction, it just allows for so many strange combos that don't seem to make sense. Like a Storm Bolter with Accurate or a bolter with Blast [2].



#12 Pope Innocent

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 12:31 AM

Kain McDogal said:

After some good roleplaying and clever use of his Bolter's capabilities, I finally granted our Tac the Master of Arms Distinction with Accurate and Tearing as I found the other Special Qualities to be over the top or inappropriate for most weapons, but now he requesitioned a Storm Bolter and I really don't know how to handle Accurate together with the Storm Quality.

Should he get the extra 1D10 damage when used with the Aim Action and scoring 2 degrees of success for both hits, for only one hit or is Accurate inapplicable for Storm Bolters at all because although they can fire Single Shots they always score 2 hits?

The first. You can't reward him and then take his toy away.

If he gets 4 degrees of success then he's rolling 3D10+9 Pen 4 for two hits. It's 20 Req. At 30 Req he'd be doing 7D10+10 Pen 10 with a Las Cannon.

If you're worried he's overpowered, drop a horde of Genestealers so he needs to use Semi-auto (potentially 8 hits to the horde vs 2 hits), then when they get close he'll enter Melee. Or hit him with a Missile Launcher from a kilometer away so he hasn't got the range to retaliate. Or give an alien Unnatural Toughness (3/4) so that he has to think about using something with Felling instead. Or he has to gain the trust of an alien tribe in naked hand to hand combat… plenty of ways to get around the situation, but if you reward him with something, let him feel rewarded.

All IMO, obv.



#13 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 12:59 AM

Pope Innocent said:

At 30 Req he'd be doing 7D10+10 Pen 10 with a Las Cannon.

Actually, he won't. Accurate doesn't grant bonus damage to Heavy Weapons or Pistols - only Basic Weapons get anything more than the improved chance to hit with aimed shots.

Now, an Accurate Meltagun or Plasma Gun could inflict a lot of damage…


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#14 Plasmafest

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 03:37 AM

 

I'd have zero problem with an Accurate SB. I mean, sure, it's very powerful, but overpowered? Is it more or less powerful than an AM performing Dual Shot with a pair of Inferno Pistols? Or a 'hands-free' Cyclone Launcher firing a pair of Krak missiles?

The whole point of the SB is to give a single marine the firepower of 2 bolters, so if you'd be ok with a pair of 'twin' marines sniping a target with Accurate bolters, why not Accurate on both hits of an SB, it's not even more effective since a single Dodge test could stop both hits.



#15 Nathiel

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:02 PM

I never liked the 'only basic weapons get the bonus damage' thing. Accurate only comes standard on sniper weapons anyway. I always wonder why just the basics?



#16 Captain Ventris

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 08:10 AM

Nathiel said:

I never liked the 'only basic weapons get the bonus damage' thing. Accurate only comes standard on sniper weapons anyway. I always wonder why just the basics?

Possibly because it is a measure harder to make slight movements with larger weapons in order to line up a seriously, seriously accurate shot (i.e. firing through someone's eye lens from 200 yards), and pistols are too small to keep as steady as a basic weapon.

Also, seriously, you don't need bonus damage on a frikkin' Las Cannon. :P



#17 KommissarK

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:13 AM

Nathiel said:

I never liked the 'only basic weapons get the bonus damage' thing. Accurate only comes standard on sniper weapons anyway. I always wonder why just the basics?

Note that in the errata, they fixed the sniper rifle to be a basic weapon from a heavy weapon, to fix that rules issue.

I'll admit, I think its more to prevent accurate pistols from being the end-all be-all weapon (you mean this thing deals crazy damage and I can hide it?!). And heavy weapons are strong enough, and the ability to add further damage on top of what is already blowing through a targets AP/TB also breaks down. Basic weapons are the happy medium. Also, all sniper weapons should be basic weapons, and anything larger falls under more the lascannon style anti-material weapon.



#18 Gaire

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:01 AM

 The whole point of the Accurate quality is that the weapon is accurate enough to place shots in the 'soft spots' of a foe. Lascannons blow dinner plate-sized holes in people. I really don't think aiming for a soft spot would make THAT much more difference in terms of damage with the cannon.



#19 Kshatriya

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:05 PM

Hiding it is not really a concern that comes to mind for a DW game.

I think it's more adding Accurate damage AND having it allowable for use in melee.

That being said, I ignore the "Basic only +damage" rule. Especially for Stalker Pistols.






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