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#1 Mallumo

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:40 AM

The cards that have been shown so far:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Between Raiding Camps and Mounted Marauders, it looks like Chaos is hardly lacking in support destruction anymore, not that either is as effective as a simple Pillage or Demolition!. But Chaos already has the potential to shut their opponent down with a first turn Sorcerer of Tzeentch, and with these guys in the deck too, the danger of the game being almost decided right from the start only increases. They also make starting with Heroic Task more risky.

 



#2 Kaine82

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:56 AM

I really hope High Elves get something like Mounted Mauraders, but maybe with a  cost of 2.


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#3 Jowimus

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 08:45 AM

As someone who primarily plays High Elves...I too hope they get a big boost



#4 gr4ffi

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:29 AM

I wonder that nobody starts whining about chaos and restricting things. Is there no need for that or no activity in here?



#5 Virgo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:18 AM

No activity



#6 Mallumo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:23 AM

You want people to whine about a card no one's even played with yet and before they know what the other factions get?

 

The Mounted Marauders look very strong to me, especially if they come on turn 2 after a turn 1 Sorcerer of Tzeentch. Heck, a turn 1 Sorcerer can spell game over all by himself. But let's wait and see.

 

Still, I was hoping for more of a discussion. Guess we'll get that when the full spoiler comes.



#7 gr4ffi

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:40 AM

I dont want people to whine, hardly for a single card. If at all, then for a faction that has been showing a critical development lately. They are becoming more and more universal in harrassment (your words Mallumo) and stronger in shutting down an opponent early. I just wanted to understand why nobody has been complaining about that. Lots of whiners did the best to have FFG restrict empire cards. What now? No activity or no need yet? Maybe it is too soon, everybody is waiting for the next cycle to come out.



#8 Virgo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:17 AM

It's true that chaos is now probably the most versatile faction. Hope it won't become new pre-restrictions empire.



#9 Mallumo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:28 AM

Actually, "more and more universal in harassment" weren't my words.

 

If you're talking about the silly "petitions", I don't think they did any good. They existed and Empire cards got restricted, yes, but correlation does not imply causation. The devs don't need something like this to figure out if a card or faction is overpowered, and they have the bigger picture (as in, they know what cards are coming up, and they are less affected by the groupthink of gaming communities finding certain strategies to be dominant). What the "petitions" did accomplish was bringing a lot of negativity and circular discussions to the forums which hurt the community.

 

There have already been plenty of requests here for the restriction of Sorcerer of Tzeentch. He is one reason why Chaos went from very weak to competitive (on par with four other factions, not miles ahead of them), but he's just one reason, and with restrictions you have to be careful that you don't knock the faction too far down. The Marauders certainly look like they increase Chaos' potential to get a match decided early, but again, let's see how they actually perform, and what the other factions get.

 

 



#10 Virgo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:35 AM

Mallumo said:

The devs don't need something like this to figure out if a card or faction is overpowered, and they have the bigger picture (as in, they know what cards are coming up, and they are less affected by the groupthink of gaming communities finding certain strategies to be dominant).

By the bigger picture you mean that the game was designed so Empire would win more, but devs were forced by the community to balance the factions against their intentions? It looks like community destroyed this game. You ban VTHC, restrict forge & rodrik and this is what you get.  Dead forums.



#11 gr4ffi

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

"Chaos is hardly lacking in support destruction anymore..." "But Chaos already has the potential to shut their opponent down with a first turn Sorcerer of Tzeentch, and with these guys in the deck too, the danger of the game being almost decided right from the start only increases."

I just interpreted from that. My apologies for missunderstanding you there.

My intention in the first place only was to question this situation of inactivity, because i feel like chaos is a real threat for balance and game design atm (maybe not miles ahead, but in a way verena was). Although i could be very wrong, nobody was arguing against that yet. I do not intend to start a petition, but then again, i guess they did something good for activity here and players maybe felt like they could change things and that they would be heared by FFG. But the restriction list remains questionable in the end. It would be a great tool for balancing, i dont see it being dangerous at all, but only under one condition: It being refreshed once in a while - maybe every 2 months and not every 2 years. Because time is knocking factions down that way... Imho restricted list is not making much sense right now. And it could be thanked to inactivity, that nothing is changing.

Of course the new cards should be taken in consideration, but that is not solving the problem of chaos being able to win the game with the right draw. Balancing with new cards would mean other factions could get there. The game will get faster and faster and in the end you will roll the dice. Sometimes it has to be the restricted list and it has to be the comunity discussing such things here.



#12 Mallumo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:43 PM

I just think moderation is a good idea. Mounted Marauders looks like a good card, one that will make Chaos stronger. It's good to think ahead and anticipate problems, it's bad to overreact and call for restrictions or bans that we don't know yet are truly necessary or that might tip the balance in exactly the opposite direction - if we assume Chaos with Sorcerer of Tzeentch is the strongest faction, Chaos without the Sorcerer might not be on par with the others, but weaker. So restricting it might fix the problem only to create a new one.

 

Of course the restricted list remains questionable. It always will. It would look different if you wrote it, and different again if I did. Invasion is a game with many options, that leads to A LOT of different opinions. It is also a constantly evolving asymmetric game, so evaluations need to be constantly adjusted, that is its beauty and in some ways its curse. Dwarves were the top dog, then the restricted list was introduced, and some people were ready to give up on them because it hit them so hard. But it looks like they're still doing just fine. Now it looks to some as if Chaos is pulling ahead, but we don't know if it really will, and if it does, if it'll be to an extent that needs fixing through restrictions or bans (by that I mean that true balance cannot be achieved in a game like Invasion, and it's quite all right if factions take turns at the top spot).

 

Opinions differ of course, but for me and some others I can say that the increased activity here we saw from the "petitions" was not the kind of activity we enjoyed. It's great if people post here a lot, but if it's mostly in a bitter, vicious or self-righteous tone, or if there's nothing new, just the endless repetition of arguments already made plenty of times, it can actually turn people off. From the forums and the game.

 



#13 Virgo

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:53 AM

I think there isn't much traffic on these forums nowadays because people are active on their dedicated local forums. It's true at least here in Poland, where there's a bunch on new posts everyday, but only a few people, including myself, are writing on these forums (might be the language difference or people are just too lazy, whatever :P). The thing that turns people off the game is the fact that one faction is visibly stronger than the others and you're getting your ass handed to you like 4 out of 5 times. Loosing quite quickly stops being fun. I think the restricted list is very good and I would question only two cards (soul stealer -> hekarti is much worse for the game as a whole as it shuts down 1 hp units completely and Wilhelm -> Hemmler is just the worst designed card).

But let's end this offtop. This cycle looks MUCH better than the last and Mounted Marauders are far from being overpowered: 4 cost unit with 2 hp? They got one shotted by Corsair and Blood Dragon Knight. Raiding Camps is much better



#14 gr4ffi

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 05:09 AM

I like your opinion on restricting things, although i would have slight other cards in mind, guess everybody does so. As already posted, the biggest problem is that balancing via restriction every 2 years is far too infrequent. In the meantime you will end up loosing against the best faction again and again. Well, you cannot really balance 6 factions, but you may at least take turns more often. And although Bloodquest cycle is coming and looking great, i have a bad feeling about chaos may be going to be the number one for a much longer time. At least the game will be a bit broken considering starts and speed :(

Back to the Marauders: Imho they look really strong against order, because they cannot remove them so easy. They are already having severe problems against blood dragon knight, sorcerer of tzeentch, shades,... they will pay off in early game. Order was somehow safe with a support start against chaos, not anymore.



#15 Virgo

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:17 AM

gr4ffi said:

Back to the Marauders: Imho they look really strong against order, because they cannot remove them so easy. They are already having severe problems against blood dragon knight, sorcerer of tzeentch, shades,... they will pay off in early game. Order was somehow safe with a support start against chaos, not anymore.

How was order safe with a support start against chaos when chaos has Raiding Camps and zero cost Spawn? It's best when enemy starts with supports and you do the same. Taking down his supports by the way

Order can't remove Marauderes easily? Osterknacht Elite/Called Back/Pilgrimage/Slayers of Karak-Kadrin/Beleaguered Scout/Ithilmar Arrows anyone?



#16 gr4ffi

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:53 AM

Raiding camps start is much more unlikely compared to Warhounds or Tzeentch start with it being a multi-card-combo, so what did we do against chaos? Support start, right. And the strength of the marauders lies in the first turns of the game, canceling out a pilgrimage. Osterknacht Elite is a 2 card combo, best with milita and then again together with called back does not kill it completely. Arrows, Scout and Slayers can only trigger, if marauders are attacking, which they wont do till they way is again cleared by any chaos unit killing card. I would have said yes to Judgement of Loec :D



#17 Mallumo

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:17 AM

It might just go to show how much I can still improve at this game, but I've always thought Raiding Camps are a bit overrated. Sure, when things go perfectly, Chaos can blow up the units easily via Plague Bomb et al, and have their ~6 Chaos-supports ready to play to utilize Raiding Camps, but things don't work out perfectly all that often. Raiding Camps and the other Capital-cycle-quest of course rarely if ever hurt a deck, but I thought Chaos still had a long way to go in terms of support destruction. I like Marauders more, partly because I think they have a pretty high chance of hitting in the early turns. Chaos starts, Empire or High Elves go with Huntsmen/Envoy to the quest and a 2-cost support to the kingdom, Chaos plays Marauders and destroys the support. But we'll see how often it'll really work out this way.

 

Virgo, I agree the local forums play a big role in why there's not so much activity here. And there's nothing wrong with that, in the end it's important that the community as a whole is intact and active, it doesn't have to be here, though it would be nice if it weren't so fractured. But it is understandable that most people prefer their national forums. Naturally there's the question of why we don't get more activity from native English speakers here. I assume many prefer to use the BGG boards for all their gaming needs.



#18 Kaine82

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:05 PM

Virgo said:

No activity

You know what would really help activity. If the forums showed the card automatically when you hover over the name like on deckbox.org(as I'm typing I'm realizing it hasn't helped their forums much)


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#19 Black_Lion

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 10:08 PM

Order can easy remove Marauderes with  Boiling Oil  (Imp),  Judgement of Loec (HE)  or  Honor in Death (Dw)



#20 gr4ffi

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:14 AM

Judgement of Loec is the best early counter and unit removal. Everything else is rather unefficient. Order being less competetive in that way is a fact.

In theory Marauders got me pissed off really good. I want to show you why. Imagine you are order and the chaos player is starting with a chaos support and a village in kingdom and quest, so +1 / +1. Now you need to suspect cards like Warhounds, Sorcerer of Tzeentch, a Quest and a Spawn, even Plague Bomb (much more unlikely to be played on his 2nd turn) on the rest of his starting hand... ok, now you may start with some supports and hope he is not having the cards to utilise the quest. If he was already playing a quest, you will maybe go 1 unit, 1 support in the same zone or things like that if you even have the choice of doing so. At least you were having some plan to get into the game back then. Now we will have to suspect a Marauder too. He is having 4 mana and he might also play it out with Blood Summoning or Braying Gors for 3 or even for 2... Ok, lets try a support start anyway -> he is playing the marauder, you will have to sacrifice one support maybe loose one loyalty, there is no hindering this. Maybe you can remove it, but it will cost you something and you wont be able to install economy while the chaos player is still sitting on +1 / +1 Was the Marauder worth the money? Defenitely yes just like you are playing a 2nd turn Blood Dragon Knight! Is Chaos starting to control your first turn with this? Yes. Does it higher the chance for chaos to outright end the game on their 2nd turn? Yes.






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