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condemned & rhaegar's harp


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#1 Nemanja

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 02:47 AM

Hello,

what will happen if character with

Rhaegar's harp(BoRF)Attached character gains all Traits.

 

 

 also gets

Condemned(TbC)-Attached character loses all Traits and immunities.

Thanks for help, my 3 friends and I  all have different answers.

 



#2 Bolzano

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 03:18 AM

There is no relevant order defined to apply these effects, they are applied at the same time.

I'd say the effet of the Harp gives him 1 Trait of each Trait, so the character ends up with 2x its own printed Traits and 1x all other Traits.

But losing all Traits doesn't mean - to me - losing 1 occurence of each Traits,  but literally all of them. So the character would end with no Trait at all. It's just the same way King's Balon Host can remove all keywords from a character even if they have some more than 1x.



#3 ktom

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 05:02 AM

This question was asked and answered in relation to the card Incognito back in the CCG days. It was ruled that the two effectively canceled each other out, leaving the character with its printed traits.



#4 Bomb

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 05:08 AM

ktom said:

This question was asked and answered in relation to the card Incognito back in the CCG days. It was ruled that the two effectively canceled each other out, leaving the character with its printed traits.

I would agree with that ruling to keep it simple.

The word "All" could certainly include multiples of traits, but that would mean Rhaegar's Harp adds infinite copies of all traits.



#5 Nemanja

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 06:49 AM

 Thank you , that will be the simpliest solution.



#6 matamagos

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:37 AM

what about condemned and apprentice collar attached to a maester? Is it the same situation?

(apprentice collar -> Attached character gains the maester trait)

 

I can see that Condemned is equally powerful as Rhaegar's Harp, as they have the same wording but in opposed sense. In this case, a maester with the Collar has two times the trait maester, and Condemned removes all traits. I doubt if it removes every trait only once or it is more absolute and removes everything.

 

Thanks in advance



#7 radiskull

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:25 AM

 It's sort of counterintuitive, but in my experience, "all" means "one of each".  So if someone has 2 military icons, 1 intrigue icon, and 1 power icon, and an ability triggers that says that the character "loses all icons", they still have 1 military icon.



#8 Professor Nomos

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:39 AM

well its not that either.

 

Rather its that words like remove, reduce, lose etc can only change printed icons, str, cost, traits etc. (unless of course printed is in specific card text such as the Maester's path agenda). 

 

Icons that are "gained" such as those granted by the NW agendas can never be removed from a character. 

 

Additonally, this is why Frozen solid works to discard pyromancer's cache or burned and pillaged.  The basic rules does not allow attachments on locations thus when the cards become blank (ie lose the special rules that allow them to be attached to locations) they become invalid attachments and must be discarded.



#9 Bomb

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:52 AM

Professor Nomos said:

 

well its not that either.

 

Rather its that words like remove, reduce, lose etc can only change printed icons, str, cost, traits etc. (unless of course printed is in specific card text such as the Maester's path agenda). 

 

Icons that are "gained" such as those granted by the NW agendas can never be removed from a character. 

 

 

Not true.  Loses/Reduce etc applies to gained and printed properties of a card.

On a side note, I don't believe there are cards that say "lose all icons" and only see cards whose effect is losing one of each icon.  One of several examples is Orphan of Greenblood:

"Any Phase: Discard Orphan of the Greenblood from play (cannot be saved) to choose 1 character. Until the end of the phase, that character loses a Military, an Intrigue, and a Power icon."

I think the wording is nearly identical to that for the other effects that have you lose 1 of each.



#10 Slothgodfather

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 04:01 AM

matamagos said:

what about condemned and apprentice collar attached to a maester? Is it the same situation?

(apprentice collar -> Attached character gains the maester trait)

 

I see the comment above by Ktom that said condemned and the harp cancel each other out, leaving the character with their printed traits.  To me, that implies that both Condemned and the Harp only remove or apply (respectively) a single instance of each trait.   So a printed maester with an Apprentice Collar that also has Condemned on them should still retrain the Maester trait correct?



#11 Francisco G.

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 04:54 AM

It was answered in another thread that each and all was diferent.

 

each- One of every trait

all- Multiple copies



#12 mdc273

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

I remember something about specific cards that gave traits/keywords giving as many copies of the relevant trait/keyword for the character to gain it. So I'm not sure your each/all reference is the correct one.



#13 ktom

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:42 AM

While not necessarily true in every situation, Francisco's desctiption is a good rule of thumb and an accurate interpretation most of the time.

It's not particularly germaine to the "Condemned vs. Rhaegar's Harp" question, though. Both of those attachments use the "all" wording. One "gains all," the other "loses all." So the two effects cancel each other out. Since the two modifying effects cancel out, the card is left unmodified (which is why its printed traits are still good; it it lost those traits, too, then the "loses all" modifier would not be canceled out by the "gains all" - it would remove 1 more instance of those traits than the "gains all" provided).






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