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#1 K0balt

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:28 AM

So, I'm currently in the process of creating some elite advances (that work kinda like those in the previous games. For those that don't know what I'm talking about, it's basically a separate advancement table, which you can gain access to if you fulfill certain requirements, and pay some xp. It also often came with unique talents and abilities)  for my players, but I went kinda overboard with it (as in, there is no way all of them are getting used). So if any of you are interested, I can post them here (but I want to see if enough people are actually interested before I do it, because these include quite a few house rules, and I would convert them back before posting). My sources of inspiration are varied, but I always tried to stick to the fluff (at least, my version of it). So here are those I have already done:

Warsmith

Raptor

Berzerker

Dark Magos

Psy-Lord

Champion of the Black Legion

Son of Alpharius

Son of Omegon

Warmaster

Reaver Lord

Infiltrator

Death Dancer

Oracle

Shroud Warrior

Herald of the Gods

Arcanist

Talonmaster

Chaos Lord

Glory Hound

Reaver

Exarchial Guard

Heretek Stalker

Pyroclast

Apostate Paragon

Archeretek

Cryomancer

Phantom

Alpha Psyker

Skull Champion
 

 

Planned (those are just ideas at the top of my head, so I'm not sure any of them will be actually done):

Plague Lord
Exalted Champion
Crimson Lord
Gal Vorbak
Night Haunter
Voidlord
Dark Genetor
Soul Hunter
Warp Assassin
Warlord
Apostate Cardinal
Gore Mage
Orator
Malefic Scholar

So, anyone interested?
 

 



#2 Gurkhal

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:36 AM

K0balt said:

So, I'm currently in the process of creating some elite advances (that work kinda like those in the previous games. For those that don't know what I'm talking about, it's basically a separate advancement table, which you can gain access to if you fulfill certain requirements, and pay some xp. It also often came with unique talents and abilities)  for my players, but I went kinda overboard with it (as in, there is no way all of them are getting used). So if any of you are interested, I can post them here (but I want to see if enough people are actually interested before I do it, because these include quite a few house rules, and I would convert them back before posting). My sources of inspiration are varied, but I always tried to stick to the fluff (at least, my version of it). So here are those I have already done:

This sound like alot good fun to me. :) I'm definitly in for it and I would love to see you stuff posted about this. There are some stuff that I would comment on however which I will do below.

 

K0balt said:

Warsmith

Raptor

Berzerker

Dark Magos

Psy-Lord

Champion of the Black Legion

Son of Alpharius

Son of Omegon

Warmaster

Reaver Lord

Infiltrator

Death Dancer

Oracle

Shroud Warrior

Herald of the Gods

Arcanist

Talonmaster

Chaos Lord

Glory Hound

Reaver

Exarchial Guard

Heretek Stalker

Pyroclast

Apostate Paragon

Archeretek

Cryomancer

Phantom

Alpha Psyker

Skull Champion

Unfortunatly this may be me speaking out of ignorance due ot the fact that there are no descriptions of the Elite Advances here and so I hope you may excuse me if I walk in error. Most of these ideas seems pretty reasonable to me as grounds for making Elite Advances on: Raptor, Berzerker and Reaver all seem perfectly reasonable. Then there are a few which I'm not sure what they are about but that could also just be me that's not as well versed in 40k lore. Stuff like: Talonmaster and Skull Champion (which sounds aweful lot like another name for a Berzerker).

And then there's the parts that I don't think makes much sense to have as a Elite Advance, one again based on the name of it so the actual concept may be good. But Champion of the Black Legion, Warmaster, Archeretek and Alpha Psyker don't give me the feeling for an Elite Advance, that's just a description about how their careers are standing at the moment. For example, having an entire Elite Advance choice, or potentially four if you add the Warsmith and Sons of Alpharius/Omegon to the mix) don't strike me as very good. I think that while Elite Advances could absolutely be inspired by a Legion and you might write that most characters who have this stuff comes from that Legion, I wouldn't be so explicit in tying it to a single Legion. Now Warsmith I could see as being divergent enough to have it, but "Champion of the Black Legion" is a name that don't go well with me. The same for Alpha Psyker as that's, as far as I know, just a description for how powerful the Psyker is and I don't think that's much of a basis to make an Elite Advancement on. The same is true to the Chaos Lord and Warmaster suggestions.  

Now the actual stuff that's in these Elite Advancements may be just awesom but I do think that the names should perhaps be reconsidered. I understand that it might probably not be all that helpful in that I don't offer any alternative names for the one that I don't like but that's due to me not knowing what stuff you have tied in with them rather than anything else. When I get to see what stuff there is I hope to be more helpful, if you would have it.

K0balt said:

Planned (those are just ideas at the top of my head, so I'm not sure any of them will be actually done):

Plague Lord
Exalted Champion
Crimson Lord
Gal Vorbak
Night Haunter
Voidlord
Dark Genetor
Soul Hunter
Warp Assassin
Warlord
Apostate Cardinal
Gore Mage
Orator
Malefic Scholar

These looks pretty nice. The things I would change is probably to rename the Plague Lord into simply Plague Marine, as I see no reason to have the "lord" title in. I think I've already stated my opinion on the Chaos Lord, Warmaster and the Alpha Psyker names so that goes for "Exalted Champion" as well.Isn't Night Haunter the name nickname of the Night Lord Primarch? I wouldn't use it but instead make a new name.

K0balt said:

So, anyone interested?

I'm all in.



#3 K0balt

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:05 AM

Warmaster, Warsmith, etc...: depends on how you see it. Of course it's only advancement, you're right in that regard, but it's called Elite Advance for a reason. The principle is that if you reach a certain status, some bonuses come attached with it. So to assuage your doubts:

-Skull Champion is just that: a more powerful berserker. And why not include it?

-A Talonmaster is a title given amongst Raptors to the most talented of them, and can only be obtained through the murder of its holder.

-Warmaster: warmaster is a very specific title. You could bestow it upon yourself, but without a modicum of power and strategic acumen, you would probably just get laughed at. What the advance says is: alright, you fulfill x and y requirements, you're not a joke, so you get the title, the crown and the perks.

-Archeretek: basically just the way of throwing a few technological perks to the scientific-minded adept, and not anyone else. A combat-focused Heretek shouldn't be able to get this one.

-Alpha Psyker: not everyone is an Alpha Psyker. Not everyone knows he is an Alpha Psyker, or is born one. This is a very dangerous, very rewarding advance. Basically, every (very pricy) talent you get makes you more dangerous (for everyone including yourself) and the last one is a shortcut to Daemonhood. Near impossible to get, basically just for fun, as Alpha Psykers are beyond rare and rarely survive long.

-Champion of the Black Legion: this is kinda specific, as the Black Legion has a very specific mindset in that regard. Plus I'm trying to make one per Legion.

-Son of Alpharius/Omegon: very specific mechanic. Kinda fun.

-Warsmith: specific enough to warrant an advance.

-Chaos Lord: for the battle-minded Traitor Marine. But you better have the 50+ Legionnaires under your command to back it up, or you're laughing stock.

-Plague Lord/Marine: same thing as Skull Champion/Berserker.

-Exalted Champion: if you're your run of the mill combat-minded Legionnaire, it doesn't get much better than this.

-Night Haunter: I know, it was just a stand-in until I get an idea. I might replace some advance with rules for the creation of Traitor Legionnaires with advantages/drawbacks.

 



#4 Gurkhal

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:17 AM

K0balt said:

Warmaster, Warsmith, etc...: depends on how you see it. Of course it's only advancement, you're right in that regard, but it's called Elite Advance for a reason. The principle is that if you reach a certain status, some bonuses come attached with it. So to assuage your doubts:

I suppose it may have to do that we have some different views on what an Elite Advancement is. My view is that if an Archetype is a great road you can walk, the archetypes are about walking in specific parts of the road and its all about specialization within the archetype's sphere.

For example a Berzerker can make you a great close combat fighter while and Warmaster/Chaos Lord will make you great at commanding others. And as I see it once you have picked an Elite Advancement you stick with it as your character gets stronger, and thus I would object to having several Advancements that do more or less the same thing. In regards to having one from each Legion I think its a cool concept but I wouldn't write it out so specific as that kind of makes it impossible for anyone not of that Legion to take it. That can of course and fully legitmate be the very thing you are gunning, but that's my mind on the matter.

If you've got time I would be very happy if you could maybe post the whole list again and perhaps add a line or two about each one of them and what their "thiing" is? For example I could imagine that the Berzerker is to kill people in CC and probably being devouted to Khorne.

K0balt said:

-Skull Champion is just that: a more powerful berserker. And why not include it?

-A Talonmaster is a title given amongst Raptors to the most talented of them, and can only be obtained through the murder of its holder.

Why have two Elite Advancements that basically does the same thing?

K0balt said:

-Warmaster: warmaster is a very specific title. You could bestow it upon yourself, but without a modicum of power and strategic acumen, you would probably just get laughed at. What the advance says is: alright, you fulfill x and y requirements, you're not a joke, so you get the title, the crown and the perks.

I disagree with this approach, as I think that I've outlined above. If you fullfill X and Y to be a badass you are already a badass and I don't see why you would need an Elite Advancement to get some further perk. I would personally imagine that this is an Elite Advancement for characters wanting to get better at Commanding various things and generally keeping authority over underlings.

K0balt said:

-Archeretek: basically just the way of throwing a few technological perks to the scientific-minded adept, and not anyone else. A combat-focused Heretek shouldn't be able to get this one.

What do you mean with an "Adept" in Black Crusade?

K0balt said:

-Alpha Psyker: not everyone is an Alpha Psyker. Not everyone knows he is an Alpha Psyker, or is born one. This is a very dangerous, very rewarding advance. Basically, every (very pricy) talent you get makes you more dangerous (for everyone including yourself) and the last one is a shortcut to Daemonhood. Near impossible to get, basically just for fun, as Alpha Psykers are beyond rare and rarely survive long.

Alright. I'm not sure that I'm buying it but I think I'm getting what your after, and its not all bad from the looks of it.

K0balt said:

-Champion of the Black Legion: this is kinda specific, as the Black Legion has a very specific mindset in that regard. Plus I'm trying to make one per Legion.

Having a concept drawn from each Legion is a nice and cool thing and if you want to make it Legion specific there's nothing wrong with it, even if I would probably make it less directly tied to a Legion.

K0balt said:

-Son of Alpharius/Omegon: very specific mechanic. Kinda fun. 

Mind telling me/us?

K0balt said:

-Warsmith: specific enough to warrant an advance.

I suppose its about allowing Chaos Space Marines to get hold of tech-stuff, right?

K0balt said:

-Chaos Lord: for the battle-minded Traitor Marine. But you better have the 50+ Legionnaires under your command to back it up, or you're laughing stock. 

Ok. I'm not sure since your saying that its battle-oriented but that you need 50+ Chaos Space Marines and that kind of hints that it might be a socially/intellectually inclined Advancements. At least to me.

K0balt said:

-Plague Lord/Marine: same thing as Skull Champion/Berserker.

I can see the desire to play a Plague Marine so that's cool.

K0balt said:

-Exalted Champion: if you're your run of the mill combat-minded Legionnaire, it doesn't get much better than this.

Ok. So its just more combat stuff for a Chaos Space Marine, who is already a combat monster?

K0balt said:

-Night Haunter: I know, it was just a stand-in until I get an idea. I might replace some advance with rules for the creation of Traitor Legionnaires with advantages/drawbacks.

Alright. I assume that this one is inspired by the Night Lords and probably works around psycological warfare, intimidation and stuff like that.



#5 K0balt

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:18 AM

Wait and see. But are there any others interested?



#6 HappyDaze

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:04 AM

In the previous WH40K RPGs, an Elite Advance allowed you to purchase something that wasn't available on your career path. Black Crusade does away with the career paths and opens up virtually all skills and talents to be purchased in whatever combination (subject to prerequisites) that fit the character. I'm not seeing where Elite Advances are going to be useful with the Black Crusade ruleset.


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#7 K0balt

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:38 AM

And often offered new talents. Very few actually presented just a new advancement table, honestly, and mostly in Dark Heresy. But what I like is what you don't even know what these are and are already bashing them as useless. Nice job, mate. Simply think about it like that: if I went on with your mindset (discarding the use out of hand), I wouldn't have had anything to write, now would I? So since I actually wrote something, it stands to reason that there must be some kind of content behind it, doesn't it?

The basic frame is this:

Cost: Xp cost (included is the first ability)

2nd Ability: Xp cost

3rd Ability: Xp cost

4th Ability: Xp Cost (there are at most 4, and at least one ability each time)

Requirements, in terms of stats, talents, skills, as well as gear and other (Rp, traits, situational, etc) requirements.

Description of the abilities, in order.

Advancement table. Basically, regardless of your alignment, you purchase certain skills, talents and stats as though you were allied, true or opposed.

But if nobody (except Gurkhal, I'm sorry, but I won't take the time converting, I might just do a text dump in that case) wants to see, fine, less work for me. Just thought (silly me!) there might be a few genuinely pleased people about this.



#8 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:25 AM

K0balt said:

 

And often offered new talents. Very few actually presented just a new advancement table, honestly, and mostly in Dark Heresy. But what I like is what you don't even know what these are and are already bashing them as useless. Nice job, mate. Simply think about it like that: if I went on with your mindset (discarding the use out of hand), I wouldn't have had anything to write, now would I? So since I actually wrote something, it stands to reason that there must be some kind of content behind it, doesn't it?

 

 

You are using terminology wrong. Within DH, RT, and DW an Elite Advance is a skill or talent gained from outside of your normal advancement tree for a premium. Since BC has no advancement trees using the term or mechanic Elite Advance is not applicable. It may be nit-picky, but it is important to use established terminology appropriately.

Honors & Portents would be a good title for these packages. Feel free to use it if you like. Just pick a name that fits the theme and mood of BC.

 



#9 K0balt

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 10:30 AM

ItsUncertainWho said:

K0balt said:

 

And often offered new talents. Very few actually presented just a new advancement table, honestly, and mostly in Dark Heresy. But what I like is what you don't even know what these are and are already bashing them as useless. Nice job, mate. Simply think about it like that: if I went on with your mindset (discarding the use out of hand), I wouldn't have had anything to write, now would I? So since I actually wrote something, it stands to reason that there must be some kind of content behind it, doesn't it?

 

 

You are using terminology wrong. Within DH, RT, and DW an Elite Advance is a skill or talent gained from outside of your normal advancement tree for a premium. Since BC has no advancement trees using the term or mechanic Elite Advance is not applicable. It may be nit-picky, but it is important to use established terminology appropriately.

Honors & Portents would be a good title for these packages. Feel free to use it if you like. Just pick a name that fits the theme and mood of BC.

 

 

Yeah, you're right in that regard. Sorry for mixing up terminology, don't know why. Still, you got what I was saying because you actually read the whole thing. I don't feel the name has a big impact, does it? I mean, it's not like it's gonna get mentionned IG. Still, thanks for the idea.



#10 Reverend mort

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:16 PM

K0balt said:

And often offered new talents. Very few actually presented just a new advancement table, honestly, and mostly in Dark Heresy. But what I like is what you don't even know what these are and are already bashing them as useless. Nice job, mate. Simply think about it like that: if I went on with your mindset (discarding the use out of hand), I wouldn't have had anything to write, now would I? So since I actually wrote something, it stands to reason that there must be some kind of content behind it, doesn't it?

The basic frame is this:

Cost: Xp cost (included is the first ability)

2nd Ability: Xp cost

3rd Ability: Xp cost

4th Ability: Xp Cost (there are at most 4, and at least one ability each time)

Requirements, in terms of stats, talents, skills, as well as gear and other (Rp, traits, situational, etc) requirements.

Description of the abilities, in order.

Advancement table. Basically, regardless of your alignment, you purchase certain skills, talents and stats as though you were allied, true or opposed.

But if nobody (except Gurkhal, I'm sorry, but I won't take the time converting, I might just do a text dump in that case) wants to see, fine, less work for me. Just thought (silly me!) there might be a few genuinely pleased people about this.



Look, throwing a fit and playing the victim is not gonna help your case. Happydaze point remains.

Black Crusade did away with rank, class based advancements and uneven purchase costs for a reason both thematic and mechanical. Reintroducing it is probably not gonna mesh well with the current system, especially if you intend to subvert the existing alignment systems biggest impact by allowing certain characters to purchase opposed abilities as allied or true.

Now if you have new talents you wish to introduce, that's fine. You can even give them situational prerequisites like killing X amount of people in the field of battle or whatever, though I don't really recommend it.

But locking players and their characters into tightly defined little advancement tables and roles because they want talent X is really not a good idea. It undermines the theme of freedom, choice and Chaos that Black Crusade is very adamant about representing in character progression.

Also, everything in that advancement table paragraph... No. Just no. It's a horrible idea. The alignment mechanic should not be bypassed that easily. It removes the entire downside of aligning, which is that you get discouraged from going outside your patron archetype. If it becomes "oh, you get locked in unless you get an elite advance and then you can get all those talents you might want that are opposed as true or allied" then the downside is significantly lessened and Unaligned starts looking like a real sucker's choice.

Also, you posted something on the internet. Expecting nothing but praise is both very unrealistic and, tbh, somewhat egocentric. Especially when you then start responding to reasonable, coherent criticism with huffy sarcastic comments and "I'll take my toys and go home then" attitude. So take a step back, get a few breaths and respond with a level head. That way, you get more people willing to comment and actual, mechanical feedback that makes your rules work, instead of some sort of ego project that most likely will never see use outside your game.



#11 K0balt

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:19 PM

No, that was not throwing a fit: I honestly don't care about feedback, internet fame or whatever. I was explaining, quite politely, that criticizing something you have not even seen yet is intellectual dishonesty. I don't need feedback (I may use it, though): I just proposed something people might actually be interested in. But what I basically got was, "your idea is so shitty, it's not even worth it, and I haven't seen it yet." I did not expect praise, just interest. But since there is none... The worst is basically I could debunk all your remarks, because you misunderstand how they work (I can understand why), but I won't bother: it would represent hours of work, which I won't invest if people are simply not interested (and not because my "internet pride" is hurt).

Understand me here: I did this for my players, because I found it to be fun, and a nice way to customize characters. Not to post it on the Internetz to have my e-peen grow. I mean, I don't know any of you, probably never will, and I derive no ego from making up Rpg rules. However, when I offer some of my time and work for free, while I don't expect praises, because it wouldn't make much sense when I haven't posted anything, I don't see the sense of actually posting anything when the feedback is so overwhelmingly negative. That kinda was the caveat in my first post. And because I don't derive ego from this, I don't harbour some weird egotistical grudge against forum avatars: it's just that I could do something else with that time.



#12 Gurkhal

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:51 PM

While K0balt's idea has drawn some flak many of the points against it are very reasonable I think the basic concept has a bit of a merit. While I absolutely adore the system with alliegences sometimes it feels a bit to heavy-handed to me. That could of course just be me that haven't played the game sufficiently yet to really grasp the stuff correctly but I think that it could be interesting to give this idea try.

As I see it, taking a (lets call it "Title" as a working name) Title would allow a character to specialize a little, in a limited way go against the stuff associated with the chosen deity and hopefully get the creativity flowing. That's how I work at least, when I see these huge free-form stuff I feel kind of lost and would need some good points to hold on to and from there head out to deeper waters. At the very worst we can keep the name and the fluff and use them as inspiration for players who seems lost with the broad Archetype-system.

So if one would give this a shot as a test run I figure I would put it up a little as K0balt did.

Name of the Title

 

Cost: Xp cost for taking the Title

Fluff: A little fluff about the Title and to inspire both player and GM

Advancement Costs: Which Talents and Skills that have their costs reduced. I kind of figure that the mentioned stuff would count as one level more "friendly" to the character. So neutral gets allied, allied gets true and stuff like that. Hopefully it won't get overpowered or threaten to break the system

Drawback: Possible some kind of drawback that is associated with taking this Title. I was thinking that some stuff might be more expensive or something like that

Requirements: what things that the character must meet to be able to take the Title

 



#13 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:53 AM

I think what KObalt is really trying to do is something along the line of the honors and distinctions that were introduced in DW:Rites of Battle. A Small XP purchase to get a special ability or skill bump of some kind and a title.

The format Gurkhal setup is very similar to the way those are handled.



#14 K0balt

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:25 AM

ItsUncertainWho said:

I think what KObalt is really trying to do is something along the line of the honors and distinctions that were introduced in DW:Rites of Battle. A Small XP purchase to get a special ability or skill bump of some kind and a title.

The format Gurkhal setup is very similar to the way those are handled.

 

Exactly. Thank you.



#15 HappyDaze

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 04:56 PM

K0balt said:

ItsUncertainWho said:

 

I think what KObalt is really trying to do is something along the line of the honors and distinctions that were introduced in DW:Rites of Battle. A Small XP purchase to get a special ability or skill bump of some kind and a title.

The format Gurkhal setup is very similar to the way those are handled.

 

 

 

Exactly. Thank you.

Perhaps you should let others speak for you more often.


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#16 K0balt

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:33 PM

HappyDaze said:

K0balt said:

 

ItsUncertainWho said:

 

I think what KObalt is really trying to do is something along the line of the honors and distinctions that were introduced in DW:Rites of Battle. A Small XP purchase to get a special ability or skill bump of some kind and a title.

The format Gurkhal setup is very similar to the way those are handled.

 

 

 

Exactly. Thank you.

 

 

Perhaps you should let others speak for you more often.

Thank you, Herald. Please proceed and talk for me from now on. It should quite soothe my e-tongue, I must say.



#17 Kasatka

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:02 AM

 If we can move beyond the trolling and trawling, i'd like to put in some constructive criticism.

I believe that 'Titles & Honours' is a good concept to be working with so lets roll with that. Now while the system in place in Deathwatch was nice, it was still built into a class, and table based system. To port it truly to Black Crusade i feel we need to move away from giving existing Talents, Traits and Skills either reduced cost or earlier access (by removing requirements) but instead focus more on situational bonuses and modifiers.

For example,

Title: Skulltaker

Cost: 250xp

Requirements: Must be aligned to Khorne, must have decapitated an emey leader in melee combat.

Effects: Your legend has spread far and wide and many are the force you have broken by quite literally cutting off the head of the snake. Whenever you kill an enemy leader with a called shot to the head and spend a moment to revel in blood and gore as you retrieve the head (A half-action), you recieve a +10 bonus to all Intimidate test against allies of the fallen foe and you are treated as if you cause Fear 1 (increase your existing Fear rating by 1 if you already have one).

 

Now this sort of proposed scheme doesn't force non-aligned characters into an alignment, doesn't give the character a specific Talent, Trait or Skill all the time as the Fear and Intimidate bonus are situational - you aren't always going to be able to get to the enemy leader and decapitate them. It's also a fairly cheap expenditure to earn yourself a role-opportunity with the title and things needed to earn the bonus.

It should be easy enough to make some of the higher level titles and honours have an Infamy requirement as well as alignment and other requirements. Some may even require you to be unaligned.


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#18 Gurkhal

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:53 AM

I think this looks like a pretty cool idea although at higher levels I wouldn't be afraid to hand out some special abilites and stuff to come with the Title.



#19 HappyDaze

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:38 PM

This new take (and terminology) looks good. However, I wouldn't be surprised if we see something like this when the inevitable players' book for Black Crusade comes out.

I think if you stick to Situational Modifiers (+/-10 to certain tests, etc.) you'll be better off than if you give Skills and Talents (which creates hiccups in the current allegiance/mark system).


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#20 Gurkhal

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 02:23 AM

HappyDaze said:

 

This new take (and terminology) looks good. However, I wouldn't be surprised if we see something like this when the inevitable players' book for Black Crusade comes out.

I think if you stick to Situational Modifiers (+/-10 to certain tests, etc.) you'll be better off than if you give Skills and Talents (which creates hiccups in the current allegiance/mark system).

 

To be honest I don't think that we'll ever see a Player's Handbook in the same manner that, say Dark Heresy, had one. Instead I think that kind of stuff will be spread around in the deity-specific books that will be coming up for us.
 






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