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Schizoid: Make my reality make sense...


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#1 murph

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 01:54 PM

 Okay, I'm having a serious brain lock on making sense of how the Schizoid rules work.

I read it as - Schizoid draws an alternate victory condition that replaces the main victory condition of gaining 5 foreign bases. Okay.

Then it says the other 5 Schizoid cards are stacked in a pile.

Every time the Schizoid loses an encounter, the winner draws from the 5 (inactive) Schizoid cards and shows the card to all players on the winning side.

Then that Schizoid card is shuffled back into the pile of (inactive) Schizoid cards.

If I'm reading that right, the opponents of the Schizoid have to know all six types of Schizoid victory conditions - and then slowly narrow the possibilities down by beating the Schizoid and winning the right to view an unused Schizoid victory condition to narrow the possibilities. 

I would assume then, the only way to avoid ceding a massive advantage to the Schizoid is to provide a list of all possible Schizoid victory conditions to all players.

Then all players try to win the right to narrow the odds and go for a victory condition. (Or Zap the Schizoid and win the old fashioned way).

Am I missing anything...?

Anyone have any session reports on how Schizoid worked in their game?



#2 Adam

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 01:47 AM

 You got it.  It would have been nice to have a Schizoid reference card for other players, but it is a simple DIY project.  Alternatively, simply show all six cards to the other players before the game begins.  It's not too difficult to remember them, as they are all 3 or 4 colonies plus some simple condition.  But a written list would be better.  Can't wait to try this one out. 



#3 King Friday

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 03:57 AM

A more fundamental question: what triggers a reveal of Shizoid's facedown card? I assume it's when the victory condition has been met by any player, but that's not spelled out on the alien power card or on Schizoid's victory condition cards.



#4 Adam

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:44 AM

There are no effects that reveal the card mid-game, only cards from the unused Schizoid card pile.  The only time he would show it would be when someone wins.  When victory conditions are met by players, they win, there is no ambiguity there.  Since Schizoid is the only one to know to a certainty what those conditions are, he would of course have to prove it, and the game would be over at this point, so there would be nothing preventing him from showing the card.



#5 murph

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 07:31 AM

Adam said:

There are no effects that reveal the card mid-game, only cards from the unused Schizoid card pile.  The only time he would show it would be when someone wins.  When victory conditions are met by players, they win, there is no ambiguity there.  Since Schizoid is the only one to know to a certainty what those conditions are, he would of course have to prove it, and the game would be over at this point, so there would be nothing preventing him from showing the card.

This poses a gameplay issue.

A public list of Schizoid victory conditions makes it possible for players to monitor when players achieve an alternate victory condition. They can then press the Schizoid to answer "Did player X just win?"

Which would allow players to create a public method of eliminating alternate victory conditions, in addition to the (semi) private method of beating the Schizoid in an encounter.

I suppose a player could achieve an alternate victory condition and ask the Schizoid on the sly, or (now that I think about it) just add a step to the end of every turn:

**Check for Victory: Ask the Schizoid player, "has anyone won the game?"

Hmm... like that better, I think.



#6 Adam

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:59 AM

I don't see how this is a gameplay issue.  It would create a gameplay issue of Schizoid DIDN'T have to announce when someone has won.  The game would be completely and utterly pointless.  I'm sure people will do what you suggest, and that would be a sound strategy, though achieving each of his conditions one at a time and randomly would be a slow and difficult task.  You will still need to watch what he is doing and take advantage of the ability to reveal cards by defeating him.  Whether you ask Schizoid every turn or only once someone achieves one of the possible conditions, the result is the same for those who know the cards, and there's no reason the cards should be secret as it only creates an artificial gap between the abilities of a new player to play well and those of a Schizoid veteran (or worse, whoever happens to own the game).



#7 murph

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 05:21 PM

 Of course the Schizoid has to announce when someone wins - the problem is what if the Schizoid blows it? Missing when someone has three foreign colonies and fails to make a deal would be easy to miss, for example. 

Looking for a protocol where the Schizoid gets to remain the Schizoid, but is also held accountable.



#8 King Friday

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:03 AM

My issue is that neither the alien power nor Schizoid's cards specifically spell out how the victory card is revealed, leading to arguments exactly like this one. On one hand, one can say it's obvious that Schizoid must reveal his card when any player fulfills the victory condition. On the other hand one could argue that Schizoid doesn't have to reveal is card until he himself has met the victory conditions. As far as the game materials are worded, both are viable arguments, though one is obviously less palatable than the other. In any case the writing should be clearer.

My personal opinion is that the intent of the power is to require Schizoid to reveal his card when victory conditions are fulfilled, and as such the onus of responsibility for monitoring the game should fall on the Schizoid player. I would amend the victory cards to read, "You must immediately reveal this card if any player fulfills these victory conditions."



#9 Adam

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:11 AM

It's not only unpalatable but indefensible.  Reveal it or don't reveal it.  The card says that a player wins when they meet those conditions.  The game ends win someone wins.  This is not conditional on the Schizoid's revealing the card.  And even if it was, what you suggest would be ridiculous.  No one would play that way because it would cease to be a game if one alien automatically won (save for a zap) because he could will the game to go on until he says so.



#10 GravitysAngel

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:19 PM

 I have to say that I prefer the old method of asking yes/no questions about the victory condition, but I'm eager to give this a try!

 



#11 Adam

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:37 PM

Same here.  At least Seeker is still there for all our Yes-Or-No needs.






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