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Hand of Corruption & feasibility of Chaos Space Marines


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#1 The Laughing God

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:39 PM

So I've perused the pages of Hand of Corruption a bit ... and it left me wondering what I've always been wondering: how in the name of the Ruinous Powers are you ever going to accomodate Chaos Space Marines in your heretic band??

The players are supposed to enter Imperial Space on a starship, infiltrate Port Maw and interact with its inhabitants, then sneak onto another ship and then onto the Penal World, then into the prison complex ... sneaking, skulking, trickery and deceit.

How are you going to do that when you have these 2.20 meter tall, mutated superwarriors in spikey purple skull-covered armour in your group ??


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#2 Gurkhal

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 12:19 AM

I think this may have been discussed and there were several stuff suggested, among these:

- Dress up as a servitor,

- Move around without power armour for while it would still give you attention, as long as you arn't overtly mutated few are likely to recognize you being something than a very big human, possibly some vat-grown worker or an off-world

- Keep out of sight and let the humans do the talking while the Space Marines moves around in the cargo-hold etc.

I'm sure that some of the people that made some suggestions on how to make it forward may drop in to offer a few suggestions.



#3 CaptainStabby

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 12:20 PM

Paint your armor up as some obscure chapter and walk around to the adoration of the locals!!



#4 crisaron

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:01 AM

as a prisoner...

 

 



#5 The Laughing God

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:35 AM

seriously, but reading this, I'm sure it will never really be a good fit, mixed race parties and stealth missions!

 


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#6 Reverend mort

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:51 AM

The Laughing God said:

 

seriously, but reading this, I'm sure it will never really be a good fit, mixed race parties and stealth missions!

 

 



http://www.fantasyfl...=607881&efpag=0

For the far longer discussion on this topic. However, the simple truth is... race stops being an issue the moment one of your characters gets an obvious mutation like tentacle, magnificent horns or grossly fat. And, since my understanding is that Hand of Corruption is meant to be a more "high powered" scenario, chances are you're gonna have at least one of those.

So either way, players will have to get creative and gm's will most likely have to get flexible. Personally, I still suggest a custom ritual performed either by the group psyker/sorcerer or, if they don't have one, an npc sorcerer. Mutations gone, Astartes slightly more mystically subtle. Then take off their power armor, wrap them in exceedingly gaudy finery and ornate armor, have someone else dress as a noble and call them custom ordered Skitarii bodyguards!

This would work great!
http://assassinscree..._of_Ishak_Pasha

 

 



#7 The Laughing God

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:47 PM

I am having serious problems with Chaos Space Marines dressing up as servitors, as is seriously being suggested in the Hand of Corruption scenario. Something with oil-soaked rags they should wear ..

Come on people, these are Chaos Space Marines! Can you see regular Space Marines disguising, pretending to be something else? Chaos Space Marines are different, but in my eye they would still have the same thirst for (twisted) honour and (perverted) glory. They would never disguise as a filthy servitor and wait it out in the bowels of a conveyor ship until the regular human party members say it's okay for them to go out ...

Hiding the whole party in some kind of sorcerous cloak is imaginative, but still a bit too forced for me ...

Here's thinking that since most of BC groups will be mixed-race (humans and Chaos Space Marines), this will severily affect the types of scenario you can play. Infiltration missions into the Imperium are nigh impossible.


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#8 HappyDaze

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 02:10 AM

The Laughing God said:

I am having serious problems with Chaos Space Marines dressing up as servitors, as is seriously being suggested in the Hand of Corruption scenario. Something with oil-soaked rags they should wear ..

Come on people, these are Chaos Space Marines! Can you see regular Space Marines disguising, pretending to be something else? Chaos Space Marines are different, but in my eye they would still have the same thirst for (twisted) honour and (perverted) glory. They would never disguise as a filthy servitor and wait it out in the bowels of a conveyor ship until the regular human party members say it's okay for them to go out ...

Hiding the whole party in some kind of sorcerous cloak is imaginative, but still a bit too forced for me ...

Here's thinking that since most of BC groups will be mixed-race (humans and Chaos Space Marines), this will severily affect the types of scenario you can play. Infiltration missions into the Imperium are nigh impossible.

Some CSMs might be fine with the idea of hiding and pulling strings from the shadows. The Alpha Legion seems to favor such tactics. I do agree that many CSMs would/could not go for this, but then it falls upon the player to make a character suitable for the campaign. If the GM tells the group that infiltrating the Imperium is going to be required, they should avoid making characters that are unable/unwilling to accomplish that task.


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#9 The Laughing God

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 05:26 AM

I don't think that will work. Ofcourse when a Gm starts a Black Crusade campaign, sometimes infiltration and stealth will be required. There will always come a scenario in which this is needed.

The unique setup and backdrop premise of BC then requires that you either play no CSM, or no stealth missions!

Playing exclusively in the Screaming Vortex and never sneak into the Imperium is ofcourse a possibility, but this severily limits your options for adventures and missions ...


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#10 Reverend mort

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:48 AM

The Laughing God said:

I don't think that will work. Ofcourse when a Gm starts a Black Crusade campaign, sometimes infiltration and stealth will be required. There will always come a scenario in which this is needed.

The unique setup and backdrop premise of BC then requires that you either play no CSM, or no stealth missions!

Playing exclusively in the Screaming Vortex and never sneak into the Imperium is ofcourse a possibility, but this severily limits your options for adventures and missions ...



It feels like you're moving the goal posts here. Once again, you're completely ignoring the fact that come 10 corruption, there's a significant risk that at least 1 human member of the group is just as unsubtle and obviously weird as the space marines (Pseudo-Daemonhood or Wreathed in flame, for example). Hell, considering he lacks the ability to pose as a loyalist space marine and is clearly supernatural rather than just inhuman, there's gonna be problems with infiltration regardless.

The notion that space marines are any more of an obstacle for stealth than the human psyker with child of the warp and giant horns is, to my mind, a little silly.

Likewise, the fact that you think it feels forced is still not a obstacle against SM's hiding as servitors, skitarii bodyguards, veiling themselves in sorcery, posing as loyalists or just lurking in the shadows. 



#11 HappyDaze

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:14 AM

I will say that I don't consider the rules on buying down Corruption from the GM Screen to be optional. IMO, if you want to have an extended BC campaign, especially one that infiltrates the Imperium, you need to burn away Corruption and that's going to cost you Infamy too.


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#12 skurvy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:04 PM

My problem has not been how will they fit in.  I mean, if they are disguised as prisoners i could just as easily explain that "Yes, a chaos space marine was sent to a prison colony to do heavy labor, what better task".  My problem is, what will that do to his effectiveness.  Where does his armour go, how does he get it back, will he get it back, or find new armour.  does taking away a Chaos space marines Legion Bolter and Armour make him as effective as the other characters?  What kind of backlash will that have if the characters is not careful to describe How to safeguard his armour or make plans to retreive it?  Will he have it at all during this adventure or wait until this compact is over?



#13 madpoet

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:47 AM

If I rember well the inquisitor Heisenhorn took a drug o similar that simulated a mutation like tentacle or similar just to disguise as a mutated human.

Perhaps there could be a similar drug or temporary surgical operation to remove many kind of mutations.

After a couple of week the mutation could regrow.

But I agree that a CSM woul never disguise as something else but in the direst circumstances and for a short time.

 

 

 



#14 xXGhostBladeXx

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:42 AM

HappyDaze said:

The Laughing God said:

 

I am having serious problems with Chaos Space Marines dressing up as servitors, as is seriously being suggested in the Hand of Corruption scenario. Something with oil-soaked rags they should wear ..

Come on people, these are Chaos Space Marines! Can you see regular Space Marines disguising, pretending to be something else? Chaos Space Marines are different, but in my eye they would still have the same thirst for (twisted) honour and (perverted) glory. They would never disguise as a filthy servitor and wait it out in the bowels of a conveyor ship until the regular human party members say it's okay for them to go out ...

Hiding the whole party in some kind of sorcerous cloak is imaginative, but still a bit too forced for me ...

Here's thinking that since most of BC groups will be mixed-race (humans and Chaos Space Marines), this will severily affect the types of scenario you can play. Infiltration missions into the Imperium are nigh impossible.

 

 

Some CSMs might be fine with the idea of hiding and pulling strings from the shadows. The Alpha Legion seems to favor such tactics. I do agree that many CSMs would/could not go for this, but then it falls upon the player to make a character suitable for the campaign. If the GM tells the group that infiltrating the Imperium is going to be required, they should avoid making characters that are unable/unwilling to accomplish that task.

 

What Happy Daze is saying here is very true. Pre-Heresy Alpha Legionnaires disguised themselves as common folk in the book "Legion". From memory, there were quite a few that had infiltrated a major city (held by the natives) on a planet they were actively bringing into compliance. Despite their natural size outside of their power armor, their disguise was very effective. This didn't seem out of the ordinary either, actually felt like this was standard operating procedure for the Legion; it's simply how they did things.

Now, granted, the Alpha Legion has always been somewhat of an exception when it comes to things like subterfuge. Still, I feel that given the prize at the end of the adventure (a whole freakin' planet claimed for the party's personal gain) that most CSM players will appropriately compromise certain aspects of their honor and pride to ensure the success of the compact. Simply stated, I don't think dressing up like a servitor, loyalist marine, skitarii, or any other common (and uncommon) stereotypical imperial really matters. I feel that while a solution to the whole infiltration issue (for CSM and human heretics alike) isn't entirely simple, a few clever players and some ingenuity on the GM's end can circumvent the problem believably.

Me personally, when I plan on running through this adventure as the GM for my group (the party includes between 2-5 CSMs and one obviously heretical tech priest) I'm probably going to include a side adventure that involves the taking of an astartes frigate of some sort by the party. The ship will be manned by a single squad of Storm Wardens. Once the ship is captured, the crew eliminated, and the brave Storm Wardens put to the sword (the party's Night Lord champion has a serious score to settle with the Wardens) the party can easily use the captured loyalist equipment to disguise themselves, as well as use the ship to freely navigate themselves to just about anywhere in the Koronus Expanse. From what I understand, Storm Warden patrols are fairly common throughout that sector of space, after all... very few people will give the party a sideways glance as they move towards their ultimate goal.



#15 HappyDaze

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:30 AM

Storm Warden patrols are actually pretty rare in Calixis and Koronus. Most of the area doesn't even realize that there is an Astartes Chapter headquartered in the sector.


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#16 Crate

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:37 PM

Would it be possible to hide the CSM's in some big boxes or something ?

Trying to infiltrate as a CSM will require thinking outside the box, but so will many other situations in this game.



#17 HappyDaze

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:46 PM

Crate said:

Would it be possible to hide the CSM's in some big boxes or something ?

Trying to infiltrate as a CSM will require thinking outside the box, but so will many other situations in this game.

These two sentences together almost make a joke.


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#18 xXGhostBladeXx

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:00 PM

HappyDaze said:

Storm Warden patrols are actually pretty rare in Calixis and Koronus. Most of the area doesn't even realize that there is an Astartes Chapter headquartered in the sector.

 

Ah, good to know. I did want to incorporate the Storm Wardens into it one way or another for the sake of the Night Lords player. Seems I'll have to put some more thought into it rather than just throwing it out there like that. Forgot about their whole deal with the forced seclusion and all.



#19 The Laughing God

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:16 PM

Hiding CSM in boxes? You gotta be kidding me :)

When I first started reading about the Warhammer 40,000 universe and the legions of Chaos I never considered these CSM hding themselves in boxes :) Let's face it, this is a typical RPG solution which fluff-wise just doesn't work.

@reverent Mort: so if high level human heretics have obvious mutations -> this does not solve the problem but just makes it worse. So now you don't just need to hide CSM but also the tentacled cultists :)

In Dark Heresy the cultists are often underground, sneaky cells hiding where they can ... I've always assumed BC allows you to play such cultists but this whole Screaming Vortex thing moves the backdrop premise of the game and the setting from hidden cults to Chaos excursions. This is fine ofcourse, but then the setting makes me think more of Deathwatch (open war) than Dark Heresy (investigation).


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#20 Cifer

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:20 AM

 @Crate

Would it be possible to hide the CSM's in some big boxes or something ?

That would depend entirely on whether one of your CSMs happens to be Lord Firraveus Carron.

 

@Skurvy

I mean, if they are disguised as prisoners i could just as easily explain that "Yes, a chaos space marine was sent to a prison colony to do heavy labor, what better task".

Um... no. Chaos Space Marines are the arch-enemy of mankind. Any that are caught will be (if possible) interrogated and then disposed of, preferably in a very painful way. There is no way anyone halfway sane would delay the execution any longer than absolutely necessary.

 

@The Laughing God

There are two kinds of RPG. One where the characters are relatively close together in abilities and drawbacks and one where it's possible to specialize in extremely different directions. The latter kind generally requires that you work together closely with your GM in establishing what campaign you'll play with what characters. Dark Heresy and its derivatives have always tended in that direction - going for radical missions with a Redemptionist or a sister in your group certainly won't work. Sending a power-armoured Unnatural Toughness Machine X Magos into the same combat as a robe-clad Sage will likely kill the Sage if the Magos is at all threatened.

CSMs work in campaigns that:

-are not located in Imperial space
-do not require social stealth
or
-are not so focused on social stealth that it's a spotlight-time problem if the CSMs sit those parts out.

As for "CSMs would never do that!"... that would likely depend on the kind of CSM. Since there are those that would not object to hiding themselves by whatever means necessary, playing the other kind when the GM has made clear that stealth will be required sounds suspiciously like shooting yourself in the foot.

 






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