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The Core Set or the Players Guide, Game Master Guide, Creature Guide


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#1 XTREM1337

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 04:30 AM

 I'm a lil confuse

 

Does I need the Core set  ONLY to play or I should buy the Players Guide, Game Master Guide and the Creature Guide to complete the game?

 

Or am I ok with only the 3 Guides, whitout the Core Set?

 

Thanks 



#2 Captain Fluffy

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 04:55 AM

 The core set is the best way to start.  There are some restrictions (only 3 of the colleges of magic, 3 of the priests, no rules for mutation and disease) but you get the dice, all the cards and that kind of stuff. It's also cheaper than getting all of the guides (at least it is in the UK).  The core guide says it is good for 3 players and a GM but if you replace the basic action cards with a copy of them on a sheet of paper it is easy to use it for 4 or 5 players.

The guides and vaults are a bit of oddity.  I think they were a mistake by FFG (although they do make good extra reference books). Unless guides and vaults part 2 are released they will become increasing out of date. Starting with the core set and then (if you like the game) adding the ruinous powers sets (lure of power, winds of magic etc) will get you more usable stuff and will let you complete the game.  At the moment you would need to get the guides plus the vaults plus some of the later expansions (omens of war and lure if power) to complete the game.  

Only get the guides if you want to play the game without the components.


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#3 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:10 AM

Core Set. 

As a side note, the Creature Guide and Vault shouldn't be lumped in with the Players & GM Guides & Vaults. The Creature stuff is new material, especially the Vault.


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#4 Belizan

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 06:16 AM

Having literally just gone through this, I think I can help.

The Core Set has everything you need to play the game "as intended", minimally.  And I emphasize the minimally.  Cards for actions and careers, dice, softback rulebooks explaining the basics, etc.  The rule books are broken into two types, brown covered rulebooks for GMs & Players, and Dark Grey (or blackish if you prefer) for GMs "only".  This pattern is repeated in each expansion (which typically have 1 brown and 1 grey soft book each with new rules, actions, careers, etc. based on the expansion's focus).  You can totally "get away" with just buying the core set, and doing a little searching on these forums for rules errata and clarifications and be able to play just fine.

So what are the guides?  Since the Core Set has been published there have been a number of expansions published, adding rules for disease, corruption, miscasting, insanities, etc.  As well as optional rules for players and GM's for combat (Called Encounter Mode in the game).  Most of the red booklet information in the first 4 expansions, as well as the errata have been included in the Player's Guide.  All the grey book rules with errata have been included in the Gamemaster's Guide.  Both books are hard bound, and generally far more durable then the softback books.  But here's the rub, the associated vaults (Player's and GM's) for the most part only replicate the cards and tokens from the core game.  The GM's vault comes with some dice, but not enough to play, really.  Also, as far as I can tell, the rules accumulated in both books are more summaries of the rules from the expansions (although they seem to include the entirety of the core rules).

So for rules, only (for instance if you were to try playing "WFRP lite", which is WFRP more traditional Pen and Paper style without cards), you could totally just get the GM's guide and the Player's guide (you'd probably want the Creature's Guide too).  You would still need dice (there is a separate accessory for that, or you could use on of the online dice rollers, or the iPhone dice roll app).  The Fantasy Grounds ruleset also has a nice dice roller, if you happen to already own fantasy grounds.

if you want to play with the cards, the guides/vaults are not going to fit well, because you won't have any of the expansion cards (except perhaps for some miscast & corruption cards).  This is pretty sad, because the idea of hardbound rulebooks with all the accumulated expansion rules and errata is really nice.  But they didn't make the rest of the products fit well.  

So, on its face, you have three options.

1) Get the Core set and the expansion separately in order to collect all the cards and widgets.  You can add the vaults to this set if you need spares of the main cards (for instance if you have more then 3 players).  You can also get the hardbound rules in addition if you are not monetarily constrained for their indices, errata and general durability.

2) You can get the Guides (I'd recommend all three, really) and their Vaults, then make your own cards (or simulate them) for the missing cards.  The /details/ of the cards are included in the Player's Guide (at least for the actions and careers, although I think they are missing the career-specific talents).  You could also use some software like the free Strange Eons software to mock up your own cards (there are WFRP templates) and print them out.  If you have a printer that can print on card stock that's particularly nice.

3) You could play WFRP Lite, which only uses the books and no cards.  This would look like a classic RPG.  At that point you'd just get the three Guides and possibly a dice set, and you'd be ready to go.  You'd want to photocopy the tables from the backs of the GM & Player's guides.  

Now, I should point out that even if you go the Guide route, you still don't have /all/ the expansion's rules.  The guides came out a while ago now, and they included the rules for all the expansions that had come out up to that time.  This means Winds of Magic, Signs of Faith, Gathering Storm, Adventurer's Toolkit, Edge of Night, and marginally the Gamemaster's Toolkit.  More recent expansions, like Lures of Power, Heroe's Call, Blackfire Pass, Witch's Song, (and maybe some others I've forgotten) are not included.  The Gamemaster's Toolkit is half included, which is irritating in the same fashion that the vaults don't cover the cards from the expansion but the guides do :/.

Finally, the Creature Guide & Vault, as already pointed out are largely orthogonal to this discussion.  The Core set comes with a very abbreviated list of creatures.  This list is even smaller in the GM's guide (I think they only have stats for the creatures in the intro adventure, although I could be misremembering that).  For the most part, however, the Creature Guide represents "new" content not included in the Core set.  It's not strictly necessary, but it's kind of neat, and includes errata for handling monster encounters as well as some interesting new options and concepts, as well as a significant expansion both in creatures and background information on them.  The Creature Vault gives you a large number of tokens for your creatures as well as creature and action cards for everything in the Guide, which, while not strictly speaking necessary can be handy while running (I've found at least).  Some "new" concepts like Creature Group Cards, etc.  I'd call it optional but cool.



#5 XTREM1337

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 07:13 AM

oh wow, thank you very much all, that help me a lot.

have a great day

 



#6 koraldon

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:27 AM

Following the news of TEW coming to 3e, I'm also tempted by WFRP, and in the same situation - too many products, too expensive it seems to just get the "Basic game" which will be sufficient for the 30 sessions of TEW.... i,e, Rank 3.

In other RPG's if you buy the core, you have more than enough materials for 30 sessions, however from my one-time experience with WFRP it seemed to me that the base game is lacking in the advancement / variety department...

I'm wondering about that...
Is the base game sufficient by itself to run 30 sessions (assuming TEW) or even 20 in your opinion? 
Is there a change to see a revised base set, similar to the "erratta" version in the guides, perhaps incorporating additonal stuff ? Maybe even the adventurer toolkit, which i understand is slim as is and some consider it to a "lost part" of the base.?

Of course if i will really like WFRP, i can always buy more, but at 100 USD for the base at 60 USD for TEW, it is a hefty bill as is... would love to see a more streamlined option to enter the game and enjoy it without buying other products.



#7 Captain Fluffy

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 10:06 AM

The simple answer is yes.  I have run two campaigns where the characters reached rank 3 in one and 4 in the other.  There are a total of 13 characters in these two campaigns and many of them are still in careers contained within the core set.  (one of the misconceptions about WFRP is that to advance you have to move from a basic career into an advanced career). 

That said I don't have any priests or wizards in either of these campaigns.  These two careers are limited in the core set.  

I personnally think that roleplaying is about as cheap a form of entertainment as you could ask for.  160 USD for 30 nights entertainment is pretty good (and that's list price, I found the core set for 60 USD last year).  Sure some other RPGs are cheaper (the savage worlds explorers edition is pretty unbeatable)  but others are just as pricey (my pathfinder subscription costs more than my WFRP addiction but whilst it gives me more books most of this content isn't that usable).

 


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#8 valvorik

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 11:54 AM

 As said , core set is fine.  If on budget, go with the four ruinous power/class boxes to expand.

The small expansion player box is good, the rat catcher career hurray.

The hardbacks are useful but not necessary.  See how enthused you are with the game at that point.

I find one of each fine, the rules are simple, using the cards players do not need to have their own copies of books.  I do not find need to go lite myself.  In long run, cheaper for table than D&D.



#9 Belizan

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 08:04 AM

 30 Sessions?  The short answer is, yes*.  The Daemon, as WFRP tells us, is always in the details however.  It's pretty hard to answer this question definitively, because there are a lot of unknowns.  I'd break these unknowns down into two general questions.  

First, how much strain are you going to put the system/resources under.  How efficiently are your players going to advance through their careers.  How do you handle careers and career transition options.  How satisfied will your players be with a limited selection of advanced careers, etc.

The Second question pushes in the other direction.  How willing is your group to supplement their base materials with a few custom cards and/or careers, either as stubs on paper, drawn by hand or using something like Strange Eons to do mock ups.

If the answer to the first question is conservative and the answer to the second question is liberal, you will have no problems.  If the answer to the first question is liberal and the second conservative you will probably be very disappointed with the limitations of using just the Core set.  So, basically, YMMV :/.  You certainly /can/ play 30 continuous sessions using just the Core set, you just may have to supplement the options and cards available a little to fit your needs, or constrain yourself to what's available.

 

The alternative is to expand your collection of careers and cards to fit what players of previous editions might be used to.  As already intimated, the four main expansions to grab for careers are the so-called "Ruinous Powers" expansions--Lure of Power, Signs of Faith, Winds of Magic and Men of War.  These expansions introduce special rules pertaining to each of the major chaos "gods"--Slaanesh, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Khorne; Each in its own grey GM book.  This makes them useful for GM's.  But in this context it is the brown books in each of the expansions that are of interest.  Each expansion adds a number of primarily advanced careers that many veteran players will find familiar.  So expanded options for Wizards (Winds of Magic), Priests (Signs of Faith), Warrior-types (Men of War), and Nobles (Lure of Power).  Although don't take that too literally ;).  It is worth mentioning that the Adventurer's Toolkit has a number of canonical Elven careers as well as the Rat Catcher 8).  If you are interested in Dwarven specific careers, Black Fire Pass has the bulk of them.  It can add up pretty quickly.  For Rank 4&5 careers, supposedly, Heroe's Call will have a lot of information on those sorts of careers.  With all those expansions, I think you'd be pretty set indefinitely... For what that's worth ;).  Hopefully this explanation helped.



#10 koraldon

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 06:45 AM

Thanks Belizan,

This is excatly the conflict I have in mind... I have limited time and I wanted to make the most of it. I'm aware that if i buy the core + the "power 4" I will be set - but it is a too expensive for me...

I guess i will wait first for review of TEW and decide at that time.

Thanks



#11 valvorik

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 07:19 AM

You can also go core and then say to players:

if you have a cleric player -  you want more options, how about we go 50/50 on cost of that expansion? etc.  Or more bluntly, "if you want more social actions and rules for nobles, one or more of you chip in and buy Lure of Power" etc.

I don't see why the GM should foot the entire bill for material to support game, particularly if players aren't having to buy their own players hand book (asin some games).

 



#12 Daedalum

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 01:28 PM

 Just one warning to expectations, particularly those gamers used to getting long term play from a few books.

 Really there is no budget entry point to this game for long term play. If on a budget you will get disheartened at the outlay for the Core+many expansions for a 'complete' game*.
This game costs wonga.
It also demands the GM find and strike a personal balance of component management.
 
If you are ok with the time/$ investment and, like me, find a lot to love in v3, ignore the rest of my post.
 
If you are not cool with that but want to play the adventures/TEW, I'm going to assume you are an experienced GM. 
FFG release the v3 expansion booklets and adventures as PDFs at very affordable prices.  I would advise buying a few of the adventure pdfs (found in blue/grey & chaos booklets) and either converting to WFRP2, or the upcoming Zwiehandler rules or whatever your ok converting to. Such as the free or Renaissance rules from Cakebread and Walton.
The PDF lack  rules and stats found on the cards in the boxed sets. But the adventures still hold up perfectly for conversion. Also one of the writers for the upcoming TEW expressly wanted to create a campaign to appeal universally to GMs running any form of Wfrp.
 
*'complete' is also a notion that will vary wildly in interpretation. 


#13 sepayne7l

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 01:39 PM

+1 for the core set. But, buy it online at a discount if you can. I was lucky and got mine at a Border's Bookstore with a 50% coupon, otherwise, it would have been no way.  I've been fortunate to find outrageous deals on a lot of the expansions, too.

I think it is a great system. The dice, cards and counters really speed everything along once people understand it. 

I completely sympathize with anyone who wants to just "try out" the system, but not for a lot of money. I think FFG has missed out by not offering a sort of red box starter set, with abbreviated rules for pregen characters, some dice, and a new adventure for around $30.  No, I don't mean repackaging "A Day Late" or any of the ones already available.

 

 

 

 

 



#14 valvorik

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:10 AM

2nded that a truly low cost "starter set" would help FFG promote game.



#15 Daedalum

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:31 PM

 Another entry point?? I think we have enough confounded buyers already :)

 

My take on an appealing stand alone supplement would be a skaven or green skin one shot.  Or limited in scope to a tomb raid or some such.

Would include:
•errata updated Tomb  of Adventure with beastiary and EfaE replaced with ~3 linked adventures.
•errata updated Rulebook
•2xdice sets
•No faith or magic books
•8xpregen basic characters and careers and associated cards relevant to the theme 
•enough cards and tokens for the GM to run the included adventures
 
Appeal to core set owners would be errata-ed booklets and cards. And Mo dice :)
 
But I digress sorry





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