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Unit Entry & Skills Usage


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#1 LotusPwn3r

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:05 AM

Can anyone out there provide any reason why the "Fast" or "Scout Vehicle" skills cannot be used in conjunction with the "one space move representing the unit 'entering' the battlefield"?

All of my research on these forums & other sites regarding this topic have always turned up the opinion that the skills are used after the first action, even though the rules on skills (DT Revised Rules p.20) plainly state that "Whenever the rules for a special weapon or skill contradicts the general rules, it is the special rule that prevails!" That, in conjunction with the fact that "A player must declare all of that unit's intended actions, including any skills" before activating a unit (ibid, p.7) would point to a unit with Fast being able to enter the board with a pre-declared use of the Fast skill, then move one additional square -- all with the use of only one action.

If this is not the case, then the Scout Vehicle skill would be totally useless, right?

I am aware that for whatever reason, many critical Dust Tactics rules are at best open-ended or at worst completely ambiguous. I'm just trying to get a consensus on how the rule is interpreted in order to not waste time and energy getting into a Supreme Court-style rules-lawering debate with someone I've never played this fantastic game with before.

Thanks for any & all input!

 

 



#2 Major Mishap

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:09 AM

We use these abilities on the first action on entering, see no reason why not as these actions are additional to the Move of the model.



#3 Loophole Master

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:12 AM

The fact is that "Deployment" is a special kind of action, and not really a Move action. In the rules as written, they make it very muddled by calling it a move, but in subsequent official replies they made to our inquiries, they made it clear that Deployment consists SIMPLY of placing your figure in the 1st square of the board. JUST that. Move ratings and skills don't factor into it.

Now, Fast requires a Move action to be made, so that an extra square of movement can be added to it. So since the 1st action is Deployment, Fast cannot be used in conjunction with it. It can only be used if the 2nd action is a Move, which thus gets a bonus square.

Scout, on the other hand, does NOT require an action to trigger it. If it is the 1st turn, the unit gets to move 2 extra squares. Therefore you could use Scout at any point during your first turn, no matter what actions you're taking.



#4 LotusPwn3r

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:15 AM

That's what I'm thinking, Mishap.

Also, I believe that the Unit Entry rule helps to lessen the effectiveness of a unit w/ 2 MP since the most those units could move on round 1 is a maximum of three squares w/ no possibility of making an attack.

If a unit has a skill, though, it should never have that skill taken away from it if there is a possibility that it can be used. This is especially true of unit skills which do not require activation, IMO.



#5 LotusPwn3r

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:25 AM

In regards to what Loophole Master posted:

 

So for example: a BBQ Squad would only be able to apply the Fast skill to the second action it takes, while a Hans may move 2 additional spaces immediately after Unit Entry and still have one action left?



#6 Loophole Master

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:26 AM

Exactly. That's why Scout is a very different ability from having Fast or Move 2.



#7 LotusPwn3r

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:28 AM

Just when I thought that Hans wasn't already badass enough, what with infantry hit w/ the Granatewerfer not able to throw cover saves...



#8 Loophole Master

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:30 AM

Yeah, Hans is pretty badass for its cost.



#9 Dakkon426

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:21 AM

Scout requires an action to trigger it as you must use a Move Action to Move. You cannot fire and move in the same action and the first action is limited to placement of the unit so they can only be used by making a second move action after the unit is on the field. 

In short all move bonuses only can be applied to a second move action during deployment.



#10 Major Mishap

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:05 AM

The rules say that units enter with a 1 square move action, so  abilities can be used with this action as normal.



#11 Dakkon426

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:13 AM

 no it cannot a 1 square move is a one square move, moving more then one square violates this condition.



#12 smith2332

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:15 AM

 

LotusPwn3r said:

Just when I thought that Hans wasn't already badass enough, what with infantry hit w/ the Granatewerfer not able to throw cover saves...

Just to clarify Hans does not ignore cover on Troops  You are mistaking its weapon with the flame throwers which it is not, its considered a Incendiary Blast which does not ignore cover even though its weapan line looks just like flame throwers.



#13 smith2332

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:19 AM

I get the feeling your getting Scout and Fast confused Dakkon426, your right that you can only use Fast with a move action, but with Scout a move action is not required for you to use it.  See below on Scout from Revised Core Book, the bold does not ever say it has to be a move action like Fast in order to use.  So you can deploy, move two with scout and still attack.

 A vehicle with this skill reconnoiters the field for enemy troops. During the first round only, this vehicle can move two extra spaces. If a vehicle with this skill enters the game after the first round, this skill does not take effect.

 



#14 Dakkon426

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:40 AM

 you cannot move without making a move action how do you not undercstand that?



#15 Lska

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:42 AM

smith2332 said:

 

LotusPwn3r said:

 

Just when I thought that Hans wasn't already badass enough, what with infantry hit w/ the Granatewerfer not able to throw cover saves...

 

 

Just to clarify Hans does not ignore cover on Troops  You are mistaking its weapon with the flame throwers which it is not, its considered a Incendiary Blast which does not ignore cover even though its weapan line looks just like flame throwers.

IMO it's a granade launcher. And as such and any of these in DT it schould ignore cover.



#16 Loophole Master

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:08 AM

Scout DOES NOT require an action to trigger it. Where do you see anything written about it requiring a Move action to trigger it? All it says is that in the 1st round you can move 2 extra squares (on top of the 1 square you're getting from Deployment, and any other squares you might or might not get from your second action). Scout is NOT like Fast, that gives a bonus to a Move action.

The Hans' Granate Werfer ignores cover, just like Joe's Grenade Launcher. This was confirmed by the Dust team.



#17 Major Mishap

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:08 AM

Dakkon426 said:

 no it cannot a 1 square move is a one square move, moving more then one square violates this condition.

Dakkon426 said:

 no it cannot a 1 square move is a one square move, moving more then one square violates this condition.

Then Fast violates the condition of a M1 unit moving only 1 square per action - there is no difference.  A unit moves 1 when entering or 1 at any other time, its still a 1 suare move action plus Fast.  Nowhere in the Unit Entry rules does it state that special rules or abilities cannot be used and special rules trump standard rules.



#18 Loophole Master

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:14 AM

Major Mishap said:

The rules say that units enter with a 1 square move action, so  abilities can be used with this action as normal.

 They can't, because the Dust Team says so:

 

During the first round of the game, the first action taken by a unit must always be a one space move to enter the battlefield. The Fast skill does not apply to this movement. If the unit attacks as its second action, it cannot add an extra square to its movement. If the unit moves as its second action, it can make use of the Fast skill to move an extra square, but it cannot attack until its next activation.

Zach Tewalthomas

 

 



#19 Dakkon426

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:30 PM

Loophole Master said:

Scout DOES NOT require an action to trigger it. Where do you see anything written about it requiring a Move action to trigger it? All it says is that in the 1st round you can move 2 extra squares (on top of the 1 square you're getting from Deployment, and any other squares you might or might not get from your second action). Scout is NOT like Fast, that gives a bonus to a Move action.

The Hans' Granate Werfer ignores cover, just like Joe's Grenade Launcher. This was confirmed by the Dust team.

a unit needs to perform a move action to move so if it is not using a move action it may not move. the first action is move of 1 space for the deployment the second move can have fast and scout  applied if you choose to fire the extra spaces from scout are lost as you cannot move and shoot using the same action.



#20 Loophole Master

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:38 PM

Could you point to where exactly in the Scout rule it says that you need to perform a Move action in order to use it?

In the Fast rules they make it VERY clear that it's a bonus that gets added to a single Move action per round. For Scout they make no such distinction.

Some skills are completely dissociated from any actions, all you need to do to use them is to activate the unit. Heroic Attack, for example. You can use it while not performing a single attack in that round.






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