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Stun on guard


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#1 volanchik

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:02 AM

Stun lingering effect:

Stun tokens indicate that a figure is confused or dazed. On that figure's next turn (or the next time the overlord activates the figure, in the case of monsters), the stun token is discarded.

 

Example:

The OL's turn started.

OL have 2 monsters on the board. He activates first monster and at this point his action is interrupted and a hero with guard makes an attack with a stun ability weapon agains:

a) first (activated) monster

b) second (not activated yet) monster.

 

As I understand the lingering effect of a stun monster in variant a) will proceed his movement and (if possible) attacks as normaly would do, after what it will get a stun tocken and on the next OL's turn (next time monster will be activated) stun effect will be appllyed. And for the variant b) - stun effect will be applyed at the moment when OL activates second monster on this turn.

But it sounds wierd. Monster recieved stun and with it running around attaking heroes.

Or may be I missed smthing?



#2 Steve-O

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:18 AM

Assuming the hero with guard waits until the monster has started moving, you are correct.  The first monster has already been activated when the stun token is placed, so the point in the activation sequence during which the OL resolves the stun effect is already passed for this turn.  If the hero interrupts as soon as the OL touches the first monster (ie: as he is activating it, before it has moved or attacked), then the game can reasonably be rewound to just before the monster is activated, and the stun would be applied and then resolved immediately.

Technically the OL is supposed to allow time for the heroes to interrupt before proceeding with each action that can be interrupted, but that means waiting between each space a monster moves, before each attack and yes, before officially activating each monster.  Most people don't actually play that way because it's insanely pedantic, therefore the rules allow for a short "rewind" if the OL has already started an action before the hero has time to pipe up and say he's interrupting.

As for explaining the situation you describe, when stun is applied after the monster in activated, have you ever been bopped on the head hard enough that you have to literally stop what you're doing for a second and say "Owww!" out loud?  That's basically getting stunned in Descent, from what I can tell.  Has that ever happened to you while you were in the middle of walking somewhere?  Even if you're slightly disoriented from the impact, you can usually manage to take a couple of steps before stopping if you were already in motion, so although the situation might seem weird mechanically, it can be explained thematically.  (Making an attack on a hero after stumbling a couple of steps forward is a bit more of a stretch, but you have to figure the weapon/claw/whatever was already raised as the monster was moving forward, so dropping his arm/releasing the arrow just sort of happens naturally.)

PS: Do note, however, that this "rewind" effect is a rewind in all respects.  The OL is NOT required to continue with the action he was in the middle of performing if the interruption changes things in such a way that he no longer wants to do that.  The game has been moved back to before he started that action, and he is free to change his tack after the interruption is resolved.  The most common example of this is if the OL begins an attack and gets interrupted by Guard.  After the Guard is resolved, the OL may or may not decide to make the same attack he had previously declared, assuming the monster in question is still alive to continue its turn, of course.  Understanding the "rewind" rule becomes really important when delaing with Tahlia, in particular.



#3 volanchik

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 05:34 AM

Yes, it took us time to understand that interrupting an attack not force OL to proceed with attack when turn go back to OL after interrupting. Hard for heroes to fit it in their brains but we did it at last :)

And yes we also play gentlement way for rewinding a bit preventing that insanely pedantic practice. For e.g. OL's finish his summon part and started activating monsters. It is okey when OL activated specific monster and here hero interrupted him to use guard, meaning that monster wan't activated.

I understand that stunning on the guard already activated monster meaning and applying stun on this turn and again on the next turn would be overpowered, but web works like this right? Ranger could stop melee (or any other type) monster in a space before him with web on guard attack, and check for web would be only on next OL's turn.

I just love to use web from Falcon's Claw with guard, and was checking if it is the same with stun. So finally, sad, but no, mob will move and hit and take effect of stun on his next turn.

Thanks for answering.



#4 Steve-O

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:35 AM

volanchik said:

I understand that stunning on the guard already activated monster meaning and applying stun on this turn and again on the next turn would be overpowered, but web works like this right? Ranger could stop melee (or any other type) monster in a space before him with web on guard attack, and check for web would be only on next OL's turn.

I suppose that depends on how rules lawyery you feel like being.  The effect of web reads: "If any web tokens remain on the figure after rolling, the figure cannot spend any movement points that turn."

This would suggest that the effect occurs throughout the turn and is not simply triggered at activation.  On the other hand, it does say "after rolling" which at least implies that the effect would not kick in until the figure has had an opportunity to roll against it (and failed.)  At my table, I'd be fine with either interpretation, depending on how the group wanted to play it.

 



#5 Ispher

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:51 AM

Steve-O said:

volanchik said:

 

I understand that stunning on the guard already activated monster meaning and applying stun on this turn and again on the next turn would be overpowered, but web works like this right? Ranger could stop melee (or any other type) monster in a space before him with web on guard attack, and check for web would be only on next OL's turn.

 

I suppose that depends on how rules lawyery you feel like being.  The effect of web reads: "If any web tokens remain on the figure after rolling, the figure cannot spend any movement points that turn."

This would suggest that the effect occurs throughout the turn and is not simply triggered at activation.  On the other hand, it does say "after rolling" which at least implies that the effect would not kick in until the figure has had an opportunity to roll against it (and failed.)  At my table, I'd be fine with either interpretation, depending on how the group wanted to play it.

 

Actually, this one is answered by the FAQ, p. 10:

Q: Regarding the Falcon's Claw Copper Item, if a hero interrupts a monster's activation and hits the monster with a Web token, is the monster then able to continue spending movement points?
A: No.

Another statement on p. 9 of the FAQ confirms this (In the example given, the lingering effect token wound immediately take effect). So indeed, a Web token stops a monster in his tracks.



#6 Steve-O

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:32 AM

Ispher said:

 

Actually, this one is answered by the FAQ, p. 10:

Q: Regarding the Falcon's Claw Copper Item, if a hero interrupts a monster's activation and hits the monster with a Web token, is the monster then able to continue spending movement points?
A: No.

Another statement on p. 9 of the FAQ confirms this (In the example given, the lingering effect token wound immediately take effect). So indeed, a Web token stops a monster in his tracks.

Fair enough.  That's the answer I preferred anyway =P



#7 gran_orco

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:06 PM

Steve-O said:

 

Assuming the hero with guard waits until the monster has started moving, you are correct.  The first monster has already been activated when the stun token is placed, so the point in the activation sequence during which the OL resolves the stun effect is already passed for this turn.  If the hero interrupts as soon as the OL touches the first monster (ie: as he is activating it, before it has moved or attacked), then the game can reasonably be rewound to just before the monster is activated, and the stun would be applied and then resolved immediately.

 

 

I do not see that. The stun effect says:

"If the figure was a monster, its action immediately ends -it can do nothing else until the overlord’s next turn."

For me, it means that the monster turn ends immediately, so it should stop even if the monster was moving.



#8 Corbon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:11 PM

gran_orco said:

 

Steve-O said:

 

Assuming the hero with guard waits until the monster has started moving, you are correct.  The first monster has already been activated when the stun token is placed, so the point in the activation sequence during which the OL resolves the stun effect is already passed for this turn.  If the hero interrupts as soon as the OL touches the first monster (ie: as he is activating it, before it has moved or attacked), then the game can reasonably be rewound to just before the monster is activated, and the stun would be applied and then resolved immediately.

 

 

I do not see that. The stun effect says:

"If the figure was a monster, its action immediately ends -it can do nothing else until the overlord’s next turn."

For me, it means that the monster turn ends immediately, so it should stop even if the monster was moving.

 

 

However, this quote is tightly connected to the removal of the stun token, on that figure's next turn.

Stun tokens indicate that a figure is confused or dazed. On that figure’s next turn (or the next time the overlord activates the figure, in the case of monsters), the stun token is discarded. ... now the results of the discarding... If the figure was a monster, its action immediately ends - it can do nothing else until the overlord’s next turn. If the figure was a hero, the hero does not receive a full action this turn.

There is any easy thematic explanation to help those who need such things to get their heads around it.
Stun tokens indicate confusion and dazed-ness - an inability to think and plan. A monster (or hero) who is acting is already past the 'plan their action' stage and is acting already. At that stage confusion is irrelevant because they are past the point of decision making. Being confused mid-charge doesn't make you stop and wonder if you should charge, because you are already charging and the easiest thing for your brain to do is continue in the existing pattern. But once you've done the charge and have to think what to do next, then the confusion takes effect.
 



#9 gran_orco

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:15 PM

Corbon said:

I do not see that. The stun effect says:

"If the figure was a monster, its action immediately ends -it can do nothing else until the overlord’s next turn."

For me, it means that the monster turn ends immediately, so it should stop even if the monster was moving.

 

 

However, this quote is tightly connected to the removal of the stun token, on that figure's next turn.

Stun tokens indicate that a figure is confused or dazed. On that figure’s next turn (or the next time the overlord activates the figure, in the case of monsters), the stun token is discarded. ... now the results of the discarding... If the figure was a monster, its action immediately ends - it can do nothing else until the overlord’s next turn. If the figure was a hero, the hero does not receive a full action this turn.

There is any easy thematic explanation to help those who need such things to get their heads around it.
Stun tokens indicate confusion and dazed-ness - an inability to think and plan. A monster (or hero) who is acting is already past the 'plan their action' stage and is acting already. At that stage confusion is irrelevant because they are past the point of decision making. Being confused mid-charge doesn't make you stop and wonder if you should charge, because you are already charging and the easiest thing for your brain to do is continue in the existing pattern. But once you've done the charge and have to think what to do next, then the confusion takes effect.
 

I see. It helps.



#10 volanchik

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:23 AM

Thanks for answering, you guys are real pros in game rules and ability to explain short and clear.






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