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Balance issue or are we missing something?


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#1 FutureManZerO

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:57 PM

So my friends and I recently picked up Tannhauser. We've enjoyed the games so far but recently have started to see that all our games are becoming seriously lopsided favoring Union. This mostly seems to have to do with Barry and his giant gun. We tried seeing if there were rules for "Heavy" or anything that might temper him a bit but no luck so far. We're not sure if we're just missing something. Basically every game involves Barry single-handedly winning the game. I saw conversations about minimum range rules which I'm assuming aren't in the game any longer?

Any suggestions on possible rules we may have overlooked or anything that might balance it out for us would be appreciated.



#2 Miah999

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 07:51 PM

There is a similar thread already here, it might help to look at it first and see if it helps.

http://www.fantasyfl...=1&efidt=594704

 



#3 Moebius

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 10:37 PM

FutureManZerO said:

So my friends and I recently picked up Tannhauser. We've enjoyed the games so far but recently have started to see that all our games are becoming seriously lopsided favoring Union. This mostly seems to have to do with Barry and his giant gun. We tried seeing if there were rules for "Heavy" or anything that might temper him a bit but no luck so far. We're not sure if we're just missing something. Basically every game involves Barry single-handedly winning the game. I saw conversations about minimum range rules which I'm assuming aren't in the game any longer?

Any suggestions on possible rules we may have overlooked or anything that might balance it out for us would be appreciated.

In my experience Union losses 70% of the time. The point here is not letting barry shoot on the first place (or his friend mcneal for that matter). Union has a HUGE weakness on their mental stats.

Example, Dungeon Map: Hermann with command pack in the middle room (red and pink circles), every time barry tries to enter the room and fire he has to beat hermann on a mental duel to be able to se a foot in there.

My point, against union Herman needs to use command pack (IMHO) so he can basically deny parts of the map to the enemy. I tend to give him the eye of horus bonus token for additional fun (auto wound to barry each time he tries to set a foot in there).

Also Hermann can patmos someone every turn, try to target guys that have not activated yet.

Sitting next to Hermann have a shocktruppen in overwatch with command pack so if anybody beats him on the mental duel receives a good hit.

Have Karl with command popping out of hermann "safe zone" to shoot bad guys or do mission stuff (flags objectives etc) or just firing from within (he does not need LOS)

If you are playing other factions is a diferent business, with matriarchy I let them shoot the voivodes and have them repair each other. With shogunate... thats tougher business.



#4 Artemus Maximus

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:26 AM

In the Revised Rules published, the only restriction that weapons with the 'Heavy' trait have is that they cannot be used to launch an Overwatch attack.

 

As has been said, i agree that Barry's shortcomings are his mental and movement stats, which the other team should try to exploit, along with any other tactic they excel at.



#5 ??!

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:50 AM

Basically, Moebius has covered the important points. Barry really is powerful and can gun down enemies in a single turn - but only if he's able to see them. Heizinger and Zermann with their respective Command packs mean that Barry won't be able to enter Heizinger's path while Zermann can shoot him with his out-of-path attacks. As Moebius pointed out, Eye of Horus on Heizinger wounds Barry and a Schocktruppen on overwatch can attack anyone who manages to enter the path. Heizinger with Combat pack supported by Zermann (Command pack) and a Schocktruppen (Combat pack) also works nicely. Zermann shoots from out-of-path with 6 dice, anyone who enters the path will be attacked by the Schocktruppen on overwatch several times. Heizinger also has Sha-ha-na in this pack. Although it's a once per game item and has a stupid name, I once managed to kill an uninjured Barry with it.

Just to repeat another thing Moebius pointed out: Patmos amulet also works great against the Union. If your opponent isn't prepared for it, take control of Barry and gun down other Union characters. Best setups are: Control Barry and gun down MacNeal or control MacNeal and gun down Barry. If you manage to do that once, it will not only win you the game. It will also force your opponent to plan his moves carefully in following games, not willing to risk his important characters. Thus he'll be giving you kind of control of the game flow and the time to set up your strategy.



#6 FutureManZerO

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:57 PM

Artemus Maximus said:

In the Revised Rules published, the only restriction that weapons with the 'Heavy' trait have is that they cannot be used to launch an Overwatch attack.

Is there a page number in the revised edition book that you know for this one? We were looking everywhere for a mention of what Heavy meant.



#7 Artemus Maximus

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 01:35 AM

FutureManZerO said:

 

Artemus Maximus said:

 

In the Revised Rules published, the only restriction that weapons with the 'Heavy' trait have is that they cannot be used to launch an Overwatch attack.

 

 

Is there a page number in the revised edition book that you know for this one? We were looking everywhere for a mention of what Heavy meant.

 

 

 

TRAITS: p.14 [traits pretty much just classify equipment - other things refer to these traits]. 'Heavy' isn't literally defined, just like 'Occult' or even 'Pistol' isn't.

OVERWATCH: p.27 "...weapons with the Mental and/or Heavy traits may not be chosen for an overwatch attack."

to my knowledge, nothing else refers to weapons with the 'Heavy' trait in general in the Revised Rules or expansions, but it's possible that some future equipment/rules may. Also, Heavy weapons usually have intrinsic special rules, such as Ramirez' Mark 19 Mod A1 (only characters with the Weaponry skill may use this item).



#8 FutureManZerO

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 05:16 AM

Thank a lot! We'll try out all these suggestions next weekend and hopefully have better results!



#9 marcemtp

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 04:54 PM

every time i use the union against the reich the union gets owned, but since the shogunate release the reich doesn't stand a chance against them. I thing the matriary are overpowered but they have their down falls against the unoin. So everything seems the be balanced out in the scheme of things.



#10 Moebius

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 09:31 PM

marcemtp said:

every time i use the union against the reich the union gets owned, but since the shogunate release the reich doesn't stand a chance against them. I thing the matriary are overpowered but they have their down falls against the unoin. So everything seems the be balanced out in the scheme of things.

Actually the matriarchy are a better match-up against reich IMHO due to the voivodes - mental stat. Union against reich should use ramirez (his dog hound has also a - mental stat) and the brothers bomb can disable hermann if used carefully, and avoid Barry.

I have played several reich vs shogunate games and reich won most of them. Games are more balanced in that match-up if reich does not use Hoss as (among other things) he is invulnerable to HtH attacks.

It also depends on the game mode you are playing... again, to avoid balance issues, try to avoid deathmatch mode.



#11 ??!

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:27 AM

marcemtp said:

every time i use the union against the reich the union gets owned, but since the shogunate release the reich doesn't stand a chance against them. I thing the matriary are overpowered but they have their down falls against the unoin. So everything seems the be balanced out in the scheme of things.

I'd also say that the Union has a hard time winning against the Reich and that the Matriarchy is really powerful and hard to beat. I am, however, very interested in your Shogunate team if it can actually beat the Reich. I have put together several Shogunate teams and they were almost always wiped out by anyone else. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Maybe I choose the wrong equipment packs, maybe I'm using the wrong strategy. Whatever it is, I'd like to hear about your team.



#12 GrandClam

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:58 AM

To be fair, hass horbinger is pretty hard to hit with any faction..

I would bulk up on shin agents, if you have two available to you. Seems to me that all the best Reich tactics involve staying off of the opponent's paths, but that's the exact opposite of what you would want to do against the shin.

I forget the rest of their stuff, don't really play shogunate. maybe pick the packs that maximize their attacks. kill off everything but hass and then just gun him down with pistols later.



#13 marcemtp

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:36 PM

My son doesn't take Hoss or Herman. So its earier for me to beat him.



#14 ??!

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:37 AM

marcemtp said:

My son doesn't take Hoss or Herman. So its earier for me to beat him.

You can actually play Reich without Hoss or Herman? Wow! I didn't even know that!



#15 Barlog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 04:46 PM

I played as the Shogunate against the Reich.

Not once was I able to win a mental dual against Herman or Hoss, so I was never able to hit them, and losing mental duels against Herman hurts you.

Hoss gives me his sh*tty roles, and kills me with his high mental ability.

I don't think it's possible to win as the Shogunate against the Reich without getting super lucky with dice roles.



#16 Moebius

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:09 PM

Barlog said:

I played as the Shogunate against the Reich.

Not once was I able to win a mental dual against Herman or Hoss, so I was never able to hit them, and losing mental duels against Herman hurts you.

Hoss gives me his sh*tty roles, and kills me with his high mental ability.

I don't think it's possible to win as the Shogunate against the Reich without getting super lucky with dice roles.

If Reich takes yula with combat its also an extra boon for the reich, as she is always in overwatch against adjacent circles and most shogunate characters are h2h specialists she gets to attack a lot and do tons of damage.

There is an easy fix for this unbalance. Although you might not like it…

Treat hoss as having a shogunate loyalty symbol in addition to the symbols he does have. (much like oksana but in reverse).

Hoss has massive synergies with the shogunate and gives the faction the edge they need, a high mental character plus teleport or reichdoktor.

I have tried it it, suddently reich - shogunate matches became much more interesting. And it does not clash with the fluff and rules as you can do that playing umtoma.



#17 Miah999

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:15 PM

Moebius said:

I have tried it it, suddently reich - shogunate matches became much more interesting. And it does not clash with the fluff and rules as you can do that playing umtoma.

Not to mention fluff wise, Hoss does not even like Hermann, and would take the Nippon Accords as an opertunity to dispose of his rivial.

 

But on the other hand, my wife won a shogunate v. Reich game, but she was rolling a lot of 10s that night.



#18 Moebius

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:32 PM

Miah999 said:

 Moebius said:

 I have tried it it, suddently reich - shogunate matches became much more interesting. And it does not clash with the fluff and rules as you can do that playing umtoma.

  Not to mention fluff wise, Hoss does not even like Hermann, and would take the Nippon Accords as an opertunity to dispose of his rivial.

 But on the other hand, my wife won a shogunate v. Reich game, but she was rolling a lot of 10s that night.

 

 

If it was ruled that both hoss and hermann cannot work together (much in the way of oksana and zorka) reich would be toned down, that rivalry is interesting to know!

A proposed Setup:

Hoss Harbringer with Command Pack, Drop Prescience for Helm of Diomedes or Mask

Iroh with combat pack, drop pistol for Elizabeth Bathory

Mizu with Stamina pack (in some games maybe wolf with combat pack to use him for overwatch)

Shin agent with Stamina (drop happo for call in the troops if a  2cp game)

Ashigaru with Combat Pack or Stamina, (if playing for 3 cp drop concentrated fire for XR-35 Bonus token) (if playing against reich combat for the grenade,)

Gameplay:

On turn 1 change agent's pistol and first aid kit for ashigarus rifle and XR-35 ( with that she gets to roll 7 dice and repeat 2, thats around 5 sucesses per roll on average!) and extra resiliency for making the opponent reroll.

Use Iroh together with reichdoktor as soon as he gets 4 sucesses on an attack roll (quite often factoring in the 0s double wound and that you might spend a cp to enhance his combat ability, that roll with 2 sucesses for reichdoktor its 6 sucesses against 3 shock  dice usually killing a hero or a trooper, the trick is that with elizabeth bathory he gets back to full health, in case you fail you have 1 or 2 medi kit to heal him.

Use Mizu for flags/objectives/domination circles, and heavily leverage shadowflash (keep her always near path limits)

Go kamikaze with the ashigaru once you spend his disposable equipment, so you get to reinforce with an extra rifle plus grenade or medi kit

Use Hoss mainly for out of path attacks and flags/objectives/domination



#19 Miah999

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:39 AM

Nice ideas, Moebus.

 

One last note on the Hoss/Heizinger rivialy, If you look throught the background stuff in some of the rule books (I can't remember which ones) you'll can piece together that Hoss ordered Eva to work with the 13th Occult as a double agent, working to undermine Heizinger, and when he finds the Axis Mundi maybe even kill him so Hoss can have to himself and use it to travel back in time to save Atlantis from doom.

Sorry that's all one sentence…



#20 Moebius

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 03:24 AM

I just notice a mistake I did, Its mizu not the shin agent the one to drop happo for the call in the troops token in 2cp games.

And forgot to add that hoss attacks are ideal to soften irohs targets and increase the chances of him getting a kill with reichdoktor.






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