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Let's have co-op baseball and basketball too


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#1 Hurdoc

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 03:17 PM

I admit that I am being tongue-in-cheek here and I don't want to start a flame thread, but seriously, co-op gaming is boring. Co-op nation building, feeding the poor, etc is fine, but games?

Even is life, co-op sports (man vs nature, such as mountain climbing) are nowhere near as popular as man vs. man. I understand that some people like co-op games but, meh.

:)



#2 Grudunza

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 03:44 PM

If a theme/setting depicts a unified struggle against a common problem/enemy/situation, then a cooperative framework makes a perfect vehicle for a game.  How would it make sense for people to compete against each other in a battle against diseases spreading around the world?  Sure, you could find a way to make it about someone getting the most glory or whatever, but that would miss out on the bigger story, that people/hobbits/superheroes worked together to face the challenge.  Cooperative games are among the most exciting I've ever played: Pandemic, Ghost Stories, Lord of the Rings, Arkham Horror, Defenders of the Realm, Lord of the Rings: LCG, Battlestar Galactica, Shadows Over Camelot, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Space Alert, Mousquetaires du Roy, Middle Earth Quest, Castle Panic, Fury of Dracula, Saboteur, Forbidden Island, Last Night on Earth, Descent, Space Hulk: Death Angel, Elder Sign, Flash Point: Fire Rescue, etc.  So many amazing games with incredible theme and narrative, that provide a great shared experience.



#3 Budgernaut

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 04:25 PM

 And let's look at how popular role-playing games are. I'm sure there are some game masters out there that love to make the game a sort of hell for their players and is constantly trying to short-change them, but I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the good GMs that try to make a really fun, immersive, challenging, but rewarding, role-playing experience for their players. The players, on the other hand, are cooperating to achieve a common goal as set out by the game master. The game master controls the enemy characters, but his/her goal is not to "win" by defeating the players. His goal is to provide a challenge for the players to overcome together. You can't tell me that this extremely popular table-top gaming format is flawed because of its cooperative nature. Well, you could, but I wouldn't believe you.

LotR:LCG is the same in that there is a challenge deck, the goal of which is not to dominate and "win" against the players, but to provide a challenge and a means for them to work together to accomplish something. That is the sort of atmosphere I was hoping to experience in this Star Wars card game.


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#4 borithan

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 10:38 PM

I don't think many of those that were hoping for a co-op game (as was originally announced but is now less certain with the announcement) have a problem with competative gaming. Most gamers like a mix of style of games. As I have said in other threads , I personally feel co-op fits the setting better, as Star Wars is about the heroes overcoming the villains (while a major element of the Song of Fire and Ice series is about the various powers struggling against each other, so makes a competative game much more fitting for the setting. Warhammer is entirely a setting designed for battles of various factions against each other, so a co-operative game would make little sense). It shares much with LotR, which is about heroes going on quests and overcoming adversity in an attempt to defeat evil.

I personally find co-op games easier to just break out with a group of mates, some of whom really are not gamers. Competative games are much more advesarial (understandably) and I need to be in a certain mood, while a game where we are working together fits more naturally with having people round for a friendly evening. They are more approachable, as new players, particularly non-gamers, are not in a position where they are essentially being taken advantage of (I really don't like winning in my first game against a new player... I feel it can be a bit of a crushing experience, but then if I feel I am going easy on them I feel if I am just patronising them).

Now this doesn't mean I don't like competative games. I play them a lot, and one of my favourite boardgames is Combat Commander, a wargame which is entirely about using what advantage you have to crush the opposition. I just find them less suitable for a relaxed evening with mates. With a friend who has come round specially, yeah. At the board game club I go to every week, yeah, but generally not on a friendly night with mates (with mixed gaming experience and ability).

At the same time, you mention sports. Yes, most popular sports are competative. Partly to do with what makes exciting watching. Mountain climbing (for example) is slow. Not exactly dramatic tv. If I was going to play a game based on a sport I would expect it to be competative. However, most great stories are about either overcoming adversity or co-operation, even within sports. Most sports films, etc, are not about the sport themselves, and the opposition usually matters little. It is usually about some underdog overcoming the odds, usually by co-operating and so becoming something greater than the whole. To make a game which accurately reflected the feel of a sports film (as seperate from the sport itself) you probably would create a co-operative game.



#5 I. J. Thompson

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 01:11 AM

 Bravo to the great replies in this thread! 



#6 Hurdoc

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 11:15 AM

 Yes, I understand the "challenge" of defeating a common foe is the big draw for co-op games. That's why I mentioned mountain climbing as an example of a man vs "challenge" sport.

However, the dismay of co-op fans at the move to PvP is surprising since everyone acknowledges that man vs man sports are much more popular. If you stick the same ratio in LCGs, have one co-op game per 5 or 6 PvP games would be about correct, if not still in favor of co-op. At the end of the day, only games that will sell see the light of day.



#7 I. J. Thompson

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 03:39 PM

 So, not so tongue-in-cheek then. Maybe you should have included "people who don't agree with me, please don't reply" in your first post?



#8 Hurdoc

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 05:13 PM

I. J. Thompson said:

 So, not so tongue-in-cheek then. Maybe you should have included "people who don't agree with me, please don't reply" in your first post?

No, but I clearly should have put "people with thin skins need not reply." :)



#9 I. J. Thompson

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 02:00 AM

 Touché. 



#10 Hurdoc

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 04:00 AM

I. J. Thompson said:

 Touché. 

All in jest, my friend. 



#11 Cletus

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:00 PM

Baseball and basketball are both cooperative games. Any game that involves a team requires cooperation and often the team which cooperates "the best" or "wins at cooperating" is the winner of the game.



#12 qwertyuiop

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 12:34 PM

Cletus said:

Baseball and basketball are both cooperative games. Any game that involves a team requires cooperation and often the team which cooperates "the best" or "wins at cooperating" is the winner of the game.

You've got a point.  I remember that sweet game between the Denver Nuggets and the inanimate deck of cards from the '11-'12 season. It was pretty heated. The Nuggets lost.



#13 Doc9

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:03 AM

Grudunza said:

Cooperative games are among the most exciting I've ever played: Pandemic, Ghost Stories, Lord of the Rings, Arkham Horror, Defenders of the Realm, Lord of the Rings: LCG, Battlestar Galactica, Shadows Over Camelot, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Space Alert, Mousquetaires du Roy, Middle Earth Quest, Castle Panic, Fury of Dracula, Saboteur, Forbidden Island, Last Night on Earth, Descent, Space Hulk: Death Angel, Elder Sign, Flash Point: Fire Rescue, etc.  So many amazing games with incredible theme and narrative, that provide a great shared experience.

 

The expansion for Pandemic includes an option for a player to be a bio-terrorist playing against the other players. Battlestar Galactica has 1-2 cylons working against the crew. Shadows Over Camelot has the option for a traitor to work against the other players. Middle Earth Quest (probably one of the best games for 3 players) has one of the players taking the role of Sauron and working against the others. Fury of Dracula has one player playing Dracula. Last Night on Earth has the option of a player being the zombies. So, Yes, there is a co-operative element to these games, but the thing I love most about these games is the competitive aspect that pits one player aginst the others. Head-to-head. Mano-y-mano. As it should be here in the great U.S. of effing A. BOOM!



#14 booored

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 04:38 AM

Hurdoc said:

However, the dismay of co-op fans at the move to PvP is surprising

yeah it is especially as it HASN'T moved form co-op to pvp... no idea were your getting that from.

For me though co-op gaming is bar far the best type of leisure gaming activity, I pretty much only play co-op.


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#15 spirit

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:53 AM

I just wish they'd give us some concrete info to be going on. 



#16 telengard

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 04:11 PM

booored said:

Hurdoc said:

 

However, the dismay of co-op fans at the move to PvP is surprising

 

 

yeah it is especially as it HASN'T moved form co-op to pvp... no idea were your getting that from.

For me though co-op gaming is bar far the best type of leisure gaming activity, I pretty much only play co-op.

True they haven't explicitly *said* it, but all signs point to it.  You can now play as the Empire according to the new description, the game box @ the NY Toy Fair said for 2 players instead of 1-4 players, etc, etc.

I'm pretty disappointed by the move, was really looking forward to it being co-op (and most of all solo).



#17 MarthWMaster

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 06:38 AM

telengard said:

booored said:

 

Hurdoc said:

 

However, the dismay of co-op fans at the move to PvP is surprising

 

 

yeah it is especially as it HASN'T moved form co-op to pvp... no idea were your getting that from.

For me though co-op gaming is bar far the best type of leisure gaming activity, I pretty much only play co-op.

 

 

True they haven't explicitly *said* it, but all signs point to it.  You can now play as the Empire according to the new description, the game box @ the NY Toy Fair said for 2 players instead of 1-4 players, etc, etc.

What description? I looked at it again and it still says it's a cooperative game.


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#18 Juzam66

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 06:59 AM

I think this one :
http://www.fantasyfl...eidm=175&esem=2

Star Wars: The Card Game is an LCG that places players in control of their favorite Star Wars characters. Players will launch fleets of starships and direct some of the most famous heroes and villains in the Star Wars galaxy. With a wealth of characters, starships, missions, and enemies, Star Wars: The Card Game immerses players in galactic conflict.



#19 MarthWMaster

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 07:06 AM

 Aha, very sneaky! Two words can make all the difference.


"To play a wrong note is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable."
– Beethoven

#20 bigeeh

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:31 AM

Hurdoc said:

However, the dismay of co-op fans at the move to PvP is surprising since everyone acknowledges that man vs man sports are much more popular.

People enjoy WATCHING man vs man sports. My guess is far more people PARTICIPATE in hiking/ climbing/ camping/ canoeing and other non-competative activities and enjoy doing these with others (co-op) and alone (solo).






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