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Old Nan .. Jeyne Westerling combo question


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#1 orclrob

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 08:01 AM

Assume you have Old Nan and Jeyne Westerling on the board and Eddard in your deck.

Old Nan's text : Kneel Old Nan to choose a character. Until the end of the phase that character gains or loses a trait of your choice.

Jeyne Westerling's text.. Kneel Jeyne Westerling to search your deck for a King character, reveal it, and put it into your hand.

So since Old Nan does not say choose a character in play..  could I do something like

Kneel Old Nan.. and say.. I give Eddard the King trait. 

Then kneel Jeyne and search for Eddard?

orclrob



#2 Rozy

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 08:43 AM

I am pretty sure that you can't choose (target) a card that is out of play unless it is specified that way. So this would not work then. Surely some will explain the rules more properly.



#3 ktom

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 12:39 PM

So, you know the card "Game of Cyvasse?" It reads: "Challenges: Each player must choose and kneel a character with an (intrigue) icon he or she controls, if able. Then, the player who knelt the character with the highest STR may choose and return a character to its owner's hand." It doesn't specify that you choose a character in play to return to hand, so in your same situation, could I choose the Eddard in my deck and "return" him to my hand?

Seriously, though, two general things about this game:

1. Only cards in play are actionable unless the effect in question specifies otherwise.

2. The default is always "in play." Just because an effect doesn't expressly forbid something does not mean you can do it. In this game, it's the other way around; unless a card expressly allows something, you can't do it.



#4 orclrob

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 02:30 PM

I figued that was the answer, but with Stark not having any King characters.. I just had to ask :-)

Thanks for the answers.



#5 ktom

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 02:58 PM

orclrob said:

I figued that was the answer, but with Stark not having any King characters.. I just had to ask :-)

Well, they only ever had 1. And at 3 out-of-House, Jeyne might not be so bad in some of those Houses that have more.



#6 Lars

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 04:06 PM

or to go get mance...i wouldn't mind searching for a 3/3 tricon.



#7 Rozy

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 09:51 PM

Yeah, Mance is definetly a good choice for you if you play a Winter theme Stark deck.



#8 orclrob

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:35 PM

Yes Mance is a good choice, but not if you are running Bear Island.  Need all stark house cards for that.



#9 eloooooooi

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 07:32 AM

Hi guys,

I have a question regarding Old Nan:

If I give a trait to a character, let's say the Raven trait, does the character still have the Raven trait once he's out of play (killed, discarded from play, etc.)?

 

I assume the character loses all additional traits, bonuses, etc. but I can't find it neither in the rules nor in the FAQs. Can you tell me where to find this info?

 

Thanks in advance :)



#10 Rozy

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 07:53 AM

I dont know if this was specified in any of the rules but I dont see a use for that. The card would have that trait even if it is in you deck (discard pile, dead pile etc), but again as many many times before, you CANNOT use some ability that refers to a card that is OUT_OF_PLAY unless the card directly says so.

For exapmle you can use this beacause it specificly says so: www.tzumainn.com/agot/cards/card.php



#11 eloooooooi

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:08 AM

Rozy said:

I dont know if this was specified in any of the rules but I dont see a use for that. The card would have that trait even if it is in you deck (discard pile, dead pile etc), but again as many many times before, you CANNOT use some ability that refers to a card that is OUT_OF_PLAY unless the card directly says so.

For exapmle you can use this beacause it specificly says so: www.tzumainn.com/agot/cards/card.php

Yeah, I know that.

I give you an example: You give the Lord trait to a character, then that character dies (and goes to the dead pile) and then, somehow, you put him into play again. If the character is still a Lord, you could declare defenders against your opponent's Stannis Baratheon. If not, you couldn't.

I'm just curious about that.



#12 ktom

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:27 AM

Related example: You put Khal Drogo into play from your hand after winning a challenge. Part of that effect is to return him to your hand at the end of the phase. He dies before the end of the phase. Does he return to your hand from the dead pile?

That one is specifically addressed in the FAQ, but it carries over and sets a precedent. All lasting effects (including things like giving someone a trait with Old Nan) put on a card in play end when that card leaves play.



#13 Rozy

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:29 AM

NO this would not work this way, that character would lose his Lord trait as soon as he would left the game. So when he would come back to game he would not have it again.

Think of it as of an attachment, if a character dies the attachment is discarded from game, if you put the character into the play again somehow, that character does not get that attachment back wouldnt he? So this is the same principle.

For more Old Nan give charaters traits only until the end of the phase, dont forget that.



#14 eloooooooi

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:31 AM

ktom said:

Related example: You put Khal Drogo into play from your hand after winning a challenge. Part of that effect is to return him to your hand at the end of the phase. He dies before the end of the phase. Does he return to your hand from the dead pile?

That one is specifically addressed in the FAQ, but it carries over and sets a precedent. All lasting effects (including things like giving someone a trait with Old Nan) put on a card in play end when that card leaves play.

Thanks ktom, but where did you find that?



#15 eloooooooi

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:32 AM

Rozy said:

NO this would not work this way, that character would lose his Lord trait as soon as he would left the game. So when he would come back to game he would not have it again.

Think of it as of an attachment, if a character dies the attachment is discarded from game, if you put the character into the play again somehow, that character does not get that attachment back wouldnt he? So this is the same principle.

For more Old Nan give charaters traits only until the end of the phase, dont forget that.

Of course it doesn't work that way, I'm just asking where to find the explanation to that hehe



#16 Rozy

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:34 AM

Ktom does not  need to find this, he just knows.



#17 eloooooooi

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:41 AM

I want to know where to find the explanation by myself. I already know ktom can tell me "yes you can" or "no you can't". Thanks for your help, Rozy ;)



#18 Old Ben

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:20 AM

eloooooooi said:

I want to know where to find the explanation by myself. I already know ktom can tell me "yes you can" or "no you can't". Thanks for your help, Rozy ;)

 

The faq entry Ktom was referring to is (3.13) Out of play states in the legacy faq:

(3.13) Out of Play States
Attachment, location, and character card
effects can only be triggered (or affect the
game) when the card is in play. Event cards
can be triggered from your hand using an
action. In general, card effects on non-event
cards in a player's hand, deck, discard pile, and
dead pile are not considered to be actionable
unless the card specifically states that it can be
triggered while in its out-of-play state.
Example: The card Khal Drogo (ITE U92)
reads "Response: After you win a challenge,
put Khal Drogo into play from your hand..."
Normally, actions on character cards in hand
are not active, and thus may not be triggered.
In this case, however, as the card specifically
refers to itself and executes an ability "from
your hand," it allows the effect to be triggered
even if the card is out of play (this example
being in your hand).
Also note that cards that return to hand only
do so if they are still in play, or their game
text specifically states that said card can be
returned while in its out-of-play state.



#19 eloooooooi

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:33 AM

ktom said:

All lasting effects (including things like giving someone a trait with Old Nan) put on a card in play end when that card leaves play.

Thanks Old Ben, but I wanted to know where this information can be found.



#20 ktom

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:35 AM

Yes. The "Out of Play States" FAQ entry is what I'm looking at.

It is the entry that codifies that cards must be in play to be actionable, to either use their effects or to use the effects of other cards on them. The specific application to Khal Drogo's "return to hand" effect is at the end of that entry. 

For the most part, "lasting effects on cards in play end when the card leaves play" has never been spelled out more specifically than the Khal Drogo "return to hand" example because it is a basic assumption of the game. Kinda like the fact that "draw" isn't defined anywhere as taking the top card of your deck and putting it in your hand, but everyone just kind of understands that's how it works. It's been clarified in direct FFG rulings a couple of times, but not spelled out. The extrapolation of the "return to hand" example as illustrating the principle works well, though.






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