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So Graviton Negators..


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#1 Treguard

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:16 AM

.. How do they work?

Graviton Negator: A player may use this card in any shielded space where he has at least one unit (even if enemy units are also present). If the bombardment is currently affecting this space, all units in the space are immediately destroyed.

How are you supposed to use this effectively?

  1. No two units can share the same space without battle occuring, which will always result in either one or both sides being wiped out. 
  2. Battles occur before Bombardment, so you can't enter the shielded space, knowing that the bombardment will pass over this space, wihtout triggering combat first.
  3. You can't enter any space that is currently under bombardment, even if shielded.
  4. Allies explicitly cannot share the same space.

With these in mind* it looks like you can't wipe out an enemy force that's turtling under a shield. So other than blowing our own units up, the only purpose of this card would be to break a shield. But why would you do that? If you have a unit in there that is primed to drop a Negator then you're controling the space, why lose the added protection?

The only situation I can think of being useful is if you're possibly going to cede a spot to an opposing force, and you know the bombardment will strike this turn.. I'll need to play this of course to gauge the likelihood of such a situation occurring regularly enough to warrant the card, but as it currently stands, it just doesn't seem that useful as none of the applications seem to actively help you.

Anyone else thinking the same way or have I royally misinterpetted something?

*other, as-of-yet revealed cards and abilities permitting of course



#2 Adam

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 10:51 AM

 Huh... you're right in that it seems mostly pointless.  One exception, if I understand the racial abilities right, is that it would be good to use for the Xxcha or against the Xxcha, who can coexist with enemy units like the Bene Gesserit in Dune.  

Then again, they are treated as if they aren't on the board when they coexist, so maybe it wouldn't work, but I'd have to look over the coexistence rules again.  I hated that phrase "as if not even on the board" in Dune, and I was hoping they wouldn't include it here, as it causes me to second guess all sorts of situations.  Thankfully the rules at least clarified that they can move, which we argued about in Dune a lot.

I will definitely look into this more once I get the game, if no one has figured it out before then.



#3 Steve-O

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:23 PM

I'm guessing that "if the bombardment is currently affecting this space" is supposed to mean "if the bombardment marker is currently positioned over this space."  Meaning you move one unit into an enemy-held space during the Movement Phase and then drop this card.  Everyone dies immediately.  The bombardment "affects" the spaces it covers at all times, the fact that it usually only gets to kill things when it moves (ie: Bombardment Phase) is only incidental.

Sounds like a somewhat more generalized version of Family Atomics.  While we're at it, the text you quoted doesn't actually say the effect ever ends.  Unless there's a more general rule that can be applied to stop it, it could be that this space is vulnerable to the bombardment for the rest of the game (also in line with Family Atomics.)



#4 Treguard

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 08:32 PM

Adam said:


Huh... you're right in that it seems mostly pointless. One exception, if I understand the racial abilities right, is that it would be good to use for the Xxcha or against the Xxcha, who can coexist with enemy units like the Bene Gesserit in Dune.

 

 

 

 

Oo, now there's a thought. If you're right, the Xxcha could definitely pull off an area wipe (Nobody out-turtles a turtle!). Given that they don't seem to be *ahem* built for ninja covert operatons, it's reasonable to infer that they could share spaces with allies but I digress. Whilst I wholly support the turtle soup industry, this seems a bit niche for everyone else, but a cool combo all the same.


Steve-O said:


I'm guessing that "if the bombardment is currently affecting this space" is supposed to mean "if the bombardment marker is currently positioned over this space." Meaning you move one unit into an enemy-held space during the Movement Phase and then drop this card. Everyone dies immediately. The bombardment "affects" the spaces it covers at all times, the fact that it usually only gets to kill things when it moves (ie: Bombardment Phase) is only incidental.

 

Sounds like a somewhat more generalized version of Family Atomics. While we're at it, the text you quoted doesn't actually say the effect ever ends. Unless there's a more general rule that can be applied to stop it, it could be that this space is vulnerable to the bombardment for the rest of the game (also in line with Family Atomics.)

 

 

Whilst that is how I pretty much interpreted the card, Steve-O, unfortunately the rulebook explicitly states on page 11 "A player cannot move units into, out of, or through a space under bombardment (even if the space is shielded)." which seems to shoot down that idea.

You raise a good point as well about what are the after effects of a broken shield; negated PD Systems have been pretty much skipped in the rules, which is odd considering they show us a "destroyed shield" token early on.

The thing that's bothering me most about this clarification is the phrase "(even if enemy units are also present)" which seems to imply that area wipes can be possible. The only solid thing I can think of is that this can screw over players that have already moved in the turn order; just roll a suicide shieldbreaker into the area, slap the negator down and go down in hail of slug fire, laughing as the dreadnoughts loom overhead..



#5 Steve-O

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 02:20 AM

Treguard said:

Whilst that is how I pretty much interpreted the card, Steve-O, unfortunately the rulebook explicitly states on page 11 "A player cannot move units into, out of, or through a space under bombardment (even if the space is shielded)." which seems to shoot down that idea.

You're right.  I should have realized that earlier, since the same is essentially true in Dune (except for an optional Fremen rule that lets them move into the storm and take only half losses, which may or may not still be the case for Sol - I haven't seen their sheet yet.)

However, if I'm right about the effect being permanent, you could still do this to a shielded area that the bombardment is about to hit, potentially after it is too late for any units therein to get out.  In which case the "even if enemy units are present" bit would be useful in clarifying that you can still use this card even if you've provoked a fight that will ultimately kill your dude before the bombardment comes along to wipe things clean.  Or you could throw it down after an enemy moves units into a shielded space you control as a retaliation.

If the effect is NOT permanent, that bit of text is probably there to "clarify" some obscure corner cases where you might want to play it while enemy units are present.  Unfortunately, until we see the corner case in question, the extra text just ends up confusing things.



#6 Dolus

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 05:29 AM

Treguard said:

Graviton Negator: A player may use this card in any shielded space where he has at least one unit (even if enemy units are also present). If the bombardment is currently affecting this space, all units in the space are immediately destroyed.

 

This is a very good question you have. And in reading what you said, it does sound mostly useless, but I think after re-reading the quoted text a few times, I think I understand how to use it.

If we separate the two sentences on that card, then we have an important distinction. You can permanently destroy a shield whether or not there is a bombardment covering that space. So the latter part of the text does seem to only be covered in the case of Xxxcha co-existence (in which case I say they would die as well because co-existing or not, a bombardment will kill you).

 

So an ideal time would probably be to use it shortly before the bombardment is going to move into the space. Either land or move a single unit into an opponent's heavily armed force that is close to the current location of the bombardment fleet. After they've used their movement for the turn (so no chance of fleeing), play this card to destroy the shield. You'll be losing your unit anyways, take out their entire army with it.

 



#7 Adam

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 06:26 AM

Where in the card text does it say the shield is destroyed?  I only see what you quoted since I don't have the game yet (though I am considering a spontaneous move to Europe to rectify this), and that seems only to mention the killing of troops.  If there is another portion detailing the destruction of the shield for the territory, then I think you've hit the nail on the head, and the card has suddenly become crystal clear.  The quoted text would just be an after effect for if you're crazy enough to use it while understorm and is not the main purpose of the card, to be used to blow up enemy units.



#8 Steve-O

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:32 PM

Adam said:

Where in the card text does it say the shield is destroyed?  I only see what you quoted since I don't have the game yet (though I am considering a spontaneous move to Europe to rectify this), and that seems only to mention the killing of troops.

I don't think it explicitly says the shield is destroyed, but there's no time limit on the effect of "if the bombardment is currently affecting this space, everyone dies."  It's not "until next turn" or "in the next Bombardment Phase only."  It just happens.  Possibly forever (for all the card tells us.)

At least, that's my theory, since as I said before this card sounds an awful lot like Family Atomics from Dune and that one is permanent.  The only difference is that this card is used on any one shielded area instead of three very specific territories.

FFG is known for ambiguities in their texts, but unless there's a general rule that says "all strategy cards last one turn (or whatever) unless otherwise noted on the card," I don't see anything in the quoted text that says the effect will ever stop.



#9 Adam

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:57 PM

Ah, I see what you guys mean.  The word "currently" implies an instantaneous and terminal effect in my experience with exceptions-based games, but that would make the card seem mostly pointless.  I'd have expected it to say, if not explicitly "until the end of the game," at least something like "whenever bombardment is affecting this space" to imply a continuing effect beyond what is "currently" happening at the time the card is played.

Might be nitpicky, but that's how I understood it on first read.  I'm trying not to mentally convert anything to its Dune analog or else I'll start teaching the game and constantly mix up rules between the two since I've played so much of Dune. 



#10 LilRed

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 08:40 AM

The card text reads as follows:

"Play at the start of the battle phase.

Choose a shielded space containing at least 1 of your units. Place a destroyed shield token on the space (it is no longer shielded from the bombardment)

You may not play this card during the first round of the game.

Removie this card from the game after use."

 

I think that answers all questions...



#11 Adam

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 11:42 AM

 Oh, I thought the quote in the first post was from the card   Thank you, yes, that clears everything up.  



#12 Dolus

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 06:29 AM

Thank you, LilRed. I've been wanting to see the actual text of the card and that definitely clarifies a lot.



#13 Treguard

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 01:28 AM

Awesome, better keep some Tactical Retreats handy then... Speaking of retreating, does this mean as the current region controller you could play both strategy cards, effectively nuking the area and getting away scot free? What a lulzy combination.  

Also, is it just me or is the errata kinda irrelevant as no duh I can play a card that triggers in battle when there's enemies around- thanks for clearing that up, game.. Either that or they're really keen to stress that you can blow your own units up too.






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