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Sabotage infiltration card timing and execution question


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#1 remkowal

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:13 AM

Hi,

Last week I came across the following issues when using the sabotage 'Infiltration' card. I Might be interpreting the rules around this card wrong so please share your ideas/clarification about this card.

According to the game flow a sabotage card (in this case the infiltration card) is drawn and executed during the 'Status phase' Step 1. The infiltration card gives the opportunity to fatigue 1-3 units but during step 1 of the 'status' phase, the tokens are not removed yet (which is step 2). So it does not seem to make much sense (also because most units are fatigued anyway at this stage). I can only suggest that this card is resolve during Step 3 (place in Op Fire mode) of the status phase. Does anyone have any ideas how this can best be resolved?
 

In addition…
 

In our situation a 4 was rolled which mean that one of the 3 selected units is chosen by the opponent and switches sides (so is under control of the opponent).  The opponent chose a unit which shared the hex with a tank. How is this situation resolved? Does the unit (which changed sides) 'retreat' to a free hex nearest to the opponents side?
 

Cheers!



#2 Grand Stone

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:49 AM

Great Questions.

Since to my knowledge we are still missing a FAQ, a lot ot things are unclear regarding the Furry of the Bear expansion.  Regarding question one, your solution is the only reasonable solution. Question two however opens for many more possibile answeres. The simplest solution is to immidetly retreat the sqaud to a neighboring hex.

 

I for my part find it very strange that you can trigger your own sabotage simply by placing them in the combined strategy deck... Personaly I think sabotage should only be triggered if the ENEMY draws a card from that deck.  Its still powerful, since the combined air strategy deck has some very nice cards in it, and scaring the russians not to draw from that deck is nice enough.

 

 



#3 remkowal

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 06:52 AM

 hi Grand Stone,

thanks for your response. I wil continue to use this 'house rule' then.

About the sabotage card triggering, I agree. that part definetly could do with some better expenation. so far I've only placed the sabotage card on the combined deck when I had no interst in it or when there was a nation specific card on top. I hope there will be some FAQ soon, although they seem to take their time.



#4 Aussie_Digger

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 11:38 AM

Just to let you know I have sent an email of to FFG to ask about the issue with this card, so i hope we hear something back soon.

I also asked when we could expect to see a FAQ, as i do remember someone from FFG saying some months ago that is was about to be released (but i havent seen it anywhere)

With the issue about placing a saboatge card on a shared deck, i dont really see any problem with this as you don't have to, its a choice, so if you want to use the deck don't put one on it. I see it that if you do draw your own sabotage card its like your sabotage back firing on you (which did happen in the war all the time)



#5 Grand Stone

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 12:57 AM

The problem is that in some (some but not all) of the cards it states which nation the sabotage card effects regardless of who triggered it. In these cases it does not backfire when you trigger your own sabotage. It fires just as if the enemy triggered it. And that is in my mind stupid.



#6 Aussie_Digger

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 10:56 AM

Grand Stone said:

The problem is that in some (some but not all) of the cards it states which nation the sabotage card effects regardless of who triggered it. In these cases it does not backfire when you trigger your own sabotage. It fires just as if the enemy triggered it. And that is in my mind stupid.

I understand what you are saying but I look at it in an abstract way (as most games deal with things in an abstract way) so even if you play a sabotage card and then you draw it, I just see it as that the enemy has foiled your plans and the sabotage backfires onto you.  All of the Soviet cards can still be drawn by the soviet player and he is not effected in a bad way as they are placed in his area when drawn anyway or they refer to the soviet player on the card, its really only the germans that are effected by drawing their own cards. But still when the germans why put a card on a deck you intend to draw from. 

With that said I think the way sabotage works needs to be re done and some of the cards re written,

I can not express how disapointed I am with FFG with the amout of time they had with perfecting this expanssion and the lack of support for the game, I have not purchased anything from FFG since, I was looking at TI3 (the space theam interested me, although im mostly into historical games) but instead I will be getting eclipse as I will not be buying FFG products anymore (or until they pick up their game)



#7 Aussie_Digger

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 11:36 AM

Hey there guys I just received an email from Rob Kouba from FFG regarding the original post.

my email:

Rule Question:
> Fury Of the Bear,
>
> Infiltration card from the Sabotage deck.
>
> if rolling a 1-3 you have to fatigue X number of units. The problem 
> is that cards are drawn during the 1st part of the status phase. 
> Then the very next step of the status phase is to remove tokens, so 
> the effects of this card are useless because as soon as the card is 
> drawn and resolved you just remove the tokens the very next step 
> before starting the new round.
> How should the card be played or are there any errors in the rules 
> playing sabotage cards that need to be corrected?
> Also when will we be seeing an eratta for FotB as everyone in the 
> ToI community has been desperatly seeking one for some time now?
>
> Regards
>
> Mark

 

Response from FFG:

Greetings Mark,

 

I believe that card should be prefaced by "At the start of the next 
Action Phase, choose...."

I am unsure about the scheduling of an FAQ/Errata. I am polishing up a 
project right now. After that, I can see about putting one on the 
schedule.

Thanks

FFG
 


 



#8 remkowal

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 04:57 AM

Thanks for sharing this!

Cheers!



#9 Grand Stone

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:47 PM

Will the community be able to ask question to a FAQ. Could it be an good idé to make an list of question, and send it to him by a pdf-file?



#10 Aussie_Digger

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 11:40 AM

I think that could be a good idea, im thinking of making a list of my own as well by going through the rules and each scenario. If a few of us do this then hopefully everything will be picked up.



#11 Grand Stone

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 01:05 AM

If you publish your list somewhere, I'll be more than happy to read it through and add few comments of my own.



#12 Aussie_Digger

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 12:37 PM

No problem, Hopefully I get some time to get around to doing it soon,

I will include rules errors and unclear rules

Scenario errors

Historical errors

and clearly unbalanced scenarios (my biggest one is Prelude to breakout) its just seems to me that there is information missing on the board and the victory conditions just don't allow for the Soviets to have a chance at winning. I have played both sides a few times and the Germans always win on round 4 or 5, yet its a 10 round scenario. I think this could be a really good scenario but as it stands its not worthy of being sold in an expansion.

Do you have a boardgame geek account?



#13 RayGuns

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 05:05 PM

remkowal said:

Hi,

Last week I came across the following issues when using the sabotage 'Infiltration' card. I Might be interpreting the rules around this card wrong so please share your ideas/clarification about this card.

According to the game flow a sabotage card (in this case the infiltration card) is drawn and executed during the 'Status phase' Step 1. The infiltration card gives the opportunity to fatigue 1-3 units but during step 1 of the 'status' phase, the tokens are not removed yet (which is step 2). So it does not seem to make much sense (also because most units are fatigued anyway at this stage). I can only suggest that this card is resolve during Step 3 (place in Op Fire mode) of the status phase. Does anyone have any ideas how this can best be resolved?
 

In addition…
 

In our situation a 4 was rolled which mean that one of the 3 selected units is chosen by the opponent and switches sides (so is under control of the opponent).  The opponent chose a unit which shared the hex with a tank. How is this situation resolved? Does the unit (which changed sides) 'retreat' to a free hex nearest to the opponents side?
 

Cheers!

Great question…

The question above was posted on 25 January, 2012, or over a year ago, and there seems to be no official answer yet. Much less the needed FAQ as there are several errors in the rulebook and scenarios.

If you play the "Shock and Awe" scenario, there is a good chance one of the situations above will happen. In fact, we were playing the other day, and had it happen. The three units picked were not only one top of tanks (Tank Riders - Operations Card), but in one hex there was one infantry squad and two T-34 with one of the T-34s carrying an infantry squad. It turned out that the squad riding on top of the T-34 switched sides, but what was to be done? Surely, the squad had to dismount - while on top, wouldn't they have an excellent chance to take the tank? Anyway, since the hex was full, and enemy units cannot be in the same hex, we just simply rolled a D6 to randomly determine which adjacent hex they were to be placed in - provided it was available (no enemy units). By no means is this an official ruling, but at the time seemed to be the most logical way of dealing with the situation.

What have others been doing to resolve the situation(s) mentioned in the original question?

Also, we agree. If the unit is fatigued, it is for the next Game Round, and not the current as that would make no sense.



#14 RayGuns

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

RayGuns said:

The question above was posted on 25 January, 2012, or over a year ago, and there seems to be no official answer yet. Much less the needed FAQ as there are several errors in the rulebook and scenarios.

 

Was supposed to say, "…was posted on 25 January, 2012, or over half a year ago, and…"

 






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