Jump to content



Photo

Rules for Ports and Not Establishing Power


  • Please log in to reply
10 replies to this topic

#1 DJAnyReason

DJAnyReason

    Member

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 23 January 2012 - 07:44 AM

Scenario A:

Tyrell has three units in Oldtown and one ship in Oldtown Port.  He uses a march order in Oldtown to move all his units to attack Martell in Starfall.  Tyrell has no available power tokens, so may not establish power in Oldtown.  AGoT v2 rules state "Only the player controlling the connected land area may use the connected Port." 

  • What happens to the ship in Oldtown?
  • If Tyrell had available Power Tokens, could he opt not to leave one in Oldtown?

 

Scenario B:

Martell has three units on Dragonstone, and one ship in Dragonstone Port.  He uses a march order on Dragonstone to move all his units to attack Tyrell in Starfall.  Martell has no available power tokens, so may not establish power on Dragonstone.  AGoT v2 rules state "If a player chooses not to, or cannot, leave a Power token behind when vacating an enemy player's home area, control of that home area immediately reverts back to its original House."

  • What happens to the ship in Dragonstone?

Scenario B-1:

The events of Scenario B unfold, and Martell's attack is successful.  In the Westeros Phase of the following turn, a Muster card is drawn.

  • Who recruits on Dragonstone? May they recruit into the port?

 

Scenarios B and B-1 occurred in a game played on Saturday.

 

Not port-related, but Scenario B-related - suppose no ship in port, so Dragonstone reverts to Baratheon, no questions asked.  Martell's attack on Starfall fails, and he is forced to retreat.  May Martell retreat to Dragonstone, or must his units be removed as casualt



#2 roboben1

roboben1

    Member

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 25 January 2012 - 09:36 AM

Hi,
I've been thinking about this, in my table top games I’ve said that ships count towards maintaining control of the connect land.

2 positives with this, this enables the player to place order tokens down all areas (including the port with an order token - such as consolidate)
GOT V2 - as this must happen with an area containing one unit or more –

Bearing that in mind ships can’t attack enemy ports – but can enter those that are natural thus taking control - as you can’t enter ports that are not controlled by an enemy. GOT V2 “ship units may never march into port owned by another player.” – or – those that have been established by other houses including capitals with the printed emblem on the board.

With maintaining control of the empty province while in port this allows easy capture by others and the loss of the ship/s. (of course).


(Answers to my understanding of the rules)
Scenario A:

Nothing happens to the ship
Technically you’re not leaving (because of the ship) and still controls the zone.

Scenario B:
Still has a ship in port. (so could count as owning still)
but you could adopt rule set that if the house’s capital is taken then you have to establish control only If no troops are on the province but there is a ship in port. Or lose your ship to Baratheon.

Non-related port question:
No retreat to dragon stone as is owned by another player. if no legal area for retreat is able - i.e natural or your own province.



#3 Kurbutti

Kurbutti

    Member

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:36 PM

"Scenario A:

Tyrell has three units in Oldtown and one ship in Oldtown Port.  He uses a march order in Oldtown to move all his units to attack Martell in Starfall.  Tyrell has no available power tokens, so may not establish power in Oldtown.  AGoT v2 rules state 'Only the player controlling the connected land area may use the connected Port.'

  • What happens to the ship in Oldtown?
  • If Tyrell had available Power Tokens, could he opt not to leave one in Oldtown?"

Good questions. I'd say it would bet too harsh if the ship left in the port would be destroyed, so I'd just place it to the connected sea area. Only in case if this would lead to a supply conflict would one have to remove the ship. It's balanced this way: simply keep one unit in Oldtown if you must. And I think it's completely up to the player whether or not he/she wants to spend power tokens to retain control of an area.

"Scenario B:

Martell has three units on Dragonstone, and one ship in Dragonstone Port.  He uses a march order on Dragonstone to move all his units to attack Tyrell in Starfall.  Martell has no available power tokens, so may not establish power on Dragonstone.  AGoT v2 rules state 'If a player chooses not to, or cannot, leave a Power token behind when vacating an enemy player's home area, control of that home area immediately reverts back to its original House.'

  • What happens to the ship in Dragonstone?"

What happens to any ships in a port, when the connected land area becomes hostile? Do they retreat, or get outright destroyed? Unless rules say something specific about this I'd just let them leave the port untouched (Or have them destroyed, since "hostile" is generally speaking worse than "neutral".

 

"Scenario B-1:

The events of Scenario B unfold, and Martell's attack is successful.  In the Westeros Phase of the following turn, a Muster card is drawn.

  • Who recruits on Dragonstone? May they recruit into the port?"

House Baratheon, and yes, they can recruit in the port, because House Martell can't be in a hostile port.

"Not port-related, but Scenario B-related - suppose no ship in port, so Dragonstone reverts to Baratheon, no questions asked.  Martell's attack on Starfall fails, and he is forced to retreat.  May Martell retreat to Dragonstone, or must his units be removed as a casualty?"

 

Unless they can reach any neutral/friendly areas, they have nowhere to go and count as being destroyed. You can never retreat to an enemy area.

-----

Sorry for a messy post. I just don't understand how the quotation system works.



#4 hein.dejager

hein.dejager

    Member

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 27 January 2012 - 03:06 AM

My 2 cents. Scenario B I'd interpret as follows:  If the port is in an area that reverts back to the original house then the ship becomes the ownership of the original house. The Controlling Home Areas [p24] rule states that if the land (enemy's home area) is vacated without leaving a power token, the land reverts back to the original house. The Port rule [p25] states that if you gain control, you replace enemy ships with your own. The port rule actually says "successfully attacked and taken control", but I'd interpret leaving the area under the same rule since no other clarification is made and the Controlling Home Areas rule kicks off the Port rule . Since the area reverts back to the original house, the citizens obviously retook the land for their original lord, so the port would be taken as well.

As far as areas that don't revert back to the original house your guess is as good as mine. 

 



#5 Butaman551

Butaman551

    Member

  • Members
  • 57 posts

Posted 30 January 2012 - 11:50 AM

DJAnyReason said:

Scenario A:

Tyrell has three units in Oldtown and one ship in Oldtown Port.  He uses a march order in Oldtown to move all his units to attack Martell in Starfall.  Tyrell has no available power tokens, so may not establish power in Oldtown.  AGoT v2 rules state "Only the player controlling the connected land area may use the connected Port." 

  • What happens to the ship in Oldtown?
  • If Tyrell had available Power Tokens, could he opt not to leave one in Oldtown?

 

Scenario B:

Martell has three units on Dragonstone, and one ship in Dragonstone Port.  He uses a march order on Dragonstone to move all his units to attack Tyrell in Starfall.  Martell has no available power tokens, so may not establish power on Dragonstone.  AGoT v2 rules state "If a player chooses not to, or cannot, leave a Power token behind when vacating an enemy player's home area, control of that home area immediately reverts back to its original House."

  • What happens to the ship in Dragonstone?

Scenario B-1:

The events of Scenario B unfold, and Martell's attack is successful.  In the Westeros Phase of the following turn, a Muster card is drawn.

  • Who recruits on Dragonstone? May they recruit into the port?

 

Scenarios B and B-1 occurred in a game played on Saturday.

 

Not port-related, but Scenario B-related - suppose no ship in port, so Dragonstone reverts to Baratheon, no questions asked.  Martell's attack on Starfall fails, and he is forced to retreat.  May Martell retreat to Dragonstone, or must his units be removed as casualt

 

Interesting questions. I sent these into FFG using their rules question form and got the following responses.

Scenario A: "In an area without a pre-established control marker, the ships can be left in that area, but still do not imply control. If an enemy land unit marches into connected land area, your ship would instantly be converted."

To me, that says that the ship can stay, but you do not control that area. So any castles, supply icons or power icons would not apply to you, even though you have a ship in the port.

Scenario B:"Your initial assumption is correct. Ships do not contribute to control of an area, so leaving Dragonstone with only a ship in port will indeed revert that area to Baratheon (which would automatically also convert your ship to his)."

Scenario B-1: This is my response, not FFG's. Since FFG has been quite clear that having a ship in port does not confer control of the connected land area, Dragonstone would revert back to Baratheon's control and any ships Martell left in the port would now be Baratheon ships. If a Muster card was drawn, Baratheon would be able to recruit in Dragonstone.

If Martell lost the fight, he would NOT be able to retreat to Dragonstone since control would have passed to Baratheon and he could not retreat into an enemy territory.



#6 Healfd3ne

Healfd3ne

    Member

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:23 AM

Hey all,

I just have a quick question for you all, I have posted it here because it seems to link roughly to what I am trying to describe.

Basically my question is, can an ungarrisoned castle (controlled with a power token) be supported by an adjacent army if there is ships in its connected port?

This occured in my last game and has caused a bit of discussion in the group. My argument is that as the rules state 'you can only support a unit in an adjacent square', the ships are in the port and not in the area being attacked, therefore the castle is not eligible to be supported. Which would mean entry into the castle without combat and gaining free ships! I understand that a home base with an active 'garrison' counts as a unit, however this was not the case for this situation.

Opposing arguments were that the port is connected to the land, which means although the ships cannot add their modifier to the defence, they were still garrisoned in the castle area. It was also suggested that because a seige tower can be supported in this situation the same should apply to boats in a connected port, as they are "in the area".

Clarification would be greatly apprieciated!

Cheers!



#7 ArcticPangolin

ArcticPangolin

    Member

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:04 PM

@Healfd3ne: I see it that although a power token is present, there are no units present, and as such no battle takes place. The army would move in, remove the opposing power token and convert the ship/s to their colour should they wish, as per Butaman551s post of FFGs response to scenario A. It would not matter how many Support Orders were present. It would not even count against the "one battle per march" rule.

On topic: Page 3 of the FAQ has this very situation listed as the first entry under Ports:

Q: If a player marches all his land units out of an area (but not his home area) connected to a Port with his Ships, and in doing so chooses not to leave behind a Power token, what happens to his Ships in the Port?

A: Ships left in a Port connected to an uncontrolled land area are immediately destroyed. If the land area connected to the Port is an enemy home area, those Ships instead may immediately be replaced with Ships of that enemy’s House (as per the rules under “Taking Control of Enemy Ports” on page 25).

This should resolve all scenarios outlined by roboben1.

 



#8 Healfd3ne

Healfd3ne

    Member

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

Awesome, thanks mate!

Just on that FAQ questions answer, it contradicts the answer given here:

Butaman551 said:

DJAnyReason said:

Interesting questions. I sent these into FFG using their rules question form and got the following responses.

Scenario A: "In an area without a pre-established control marker, the ships can be left in that area, but still do not imply control. If an enemy land unit marches into connected land area, your ship would instantly be converted."

To me, that says that the ship can stay, but you do not control that area. So any castles, supply icons or power icons would not apply to you, even though you have a ship in the port.

 

I assume the FAQ is from FFG too, so does this need to be clarified further by their team?



#9 ArcticPangolin

ArcticPangolin

    Member

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:52 PM

sHealfd3ne said:

Awesome, thanks mate!

Just on that FAQ questions answer, it contradicts the answer given here:

Butaman551 said:

Interesting questions. I sent these into FFG using their rules question form and got the following responses.

 

I assume the FAQ is from FFG too, so does this need to be clarified further by their team?

I was puzzled by that too, until I checked the dates involved; Butaman551s post was on January last year, whereas the FAQ was published in March last year. I'm inclined to go with the FAQ  ;)



#10 Joeyk1985

Joeyk1985

    Member

  • Members
  • 46 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:00 AM

So to sum it up:

 

1- If you leave the land without power token, your ship is automatically destroyed

2- If an enemy gains control of that land, he may elect to automatically substitute your ship(s) with his

3- Ships in port do not provide any support to the connected land

4- You can never march into a neutral/enemy port

 

Am I correct in all 4 statements ? 

 

Also concerning the Martell example, if he leaves Dragonstone without exerting influence, and should his attack fail, his units are destroyed automatically since Dragonstone automatically reverts to Baratheon and since attackers are supposed to retreat to the area they marched from, in this case, he looses his units automatically…



#11 dypaca

dypaca

    Member

  • Members
  • 104 posts

Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:14 PM

Joeyk1985 said:

So to sum it up:

 

1- If you leave the land without power token, your ship is automatically destroyed

2- If an enemy gains control of that land, he may elect to automatically substitute your ship(s) with his

3- Ships in port do not provide any support to the connected land

4- You can never march into a neutral/enemy port

 

Am I correct in all 4 statements ? 

 

Also concerning the Martell example, if he leaves Dragonstone without exerting influence, and should his attack fail, his units are destroyed automatically since Dragonstone automatically reverts to Baratheon and since attackers are supposed to retreat to the area they marched from, in this case, he looses his units automatically…

Correct on all points.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS