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Cave Troll Damage


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#1 Ninjawa

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 02:56 AM

Just got KD last night and had a go at the seventh level.  I'm a bit confused by the wording of the cave troll damage effect.  Say I defend with a 1 sheild/1 HP ally and have a few other 2HP allies left. Does A)all the 4 spillover damage go on one other character killing it and stop, B) 2 goes on the first ally and 2 goes on the next ally killing both or C) I get to pick point by point and put 1 each on 4 different allies killing none?

Sorry if this has been answered before (I did do a search but couldn't find a difinitive answer).



#2 richsabre

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 02:58 AM

Ninjawa said:

Just got KD last night and had a go at the seventh level.  I'm a bit confused by the wording of the cave troll damage effect.  Say I defend with a 1 sheild/1 HP ally and have a few other 2HP allies left. Does A)all the 4 spillover damage go on one other character killing it and stop, B) 2 goes on the first ally and 2 goes on the next ally killing both or C) I get to pick point by point and put 1 each on 4 different allies killing none?

Sorry if this has been answered before (I did do a search but couldn't find a difinitive answer).

i would say you deal all the damage spill over to 1 character, then if it kills them stop there, there is no double spill over


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#3 booored

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 03:33 AM

richsabre said:

would say you deal all the damage spill over to 1 character, then if it kills them stop there, there is no double spill over

 

Hmmm...

"For each excess point of combat damage dealt by Cave-troll (damage that is dealt beyond the remaining hit points of the character damaged by its attack) you must damage another character you control."

There is nothing here to say it doesn't spill over more than once.. all it dose is say if the character dies send the dmg to a new character...I think that this effects spills across until the dmg runs out.


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#4 Ninjawa

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 03:47 AM

Thanks for the replies.  I can see the arguments for both answers (the source of my original confusion) as well as the inclusion of the word EACH making me think that each point can be assigned seperately.  I guess until we get an official answer or overwhelming community view I'll just do my best to get a Gandalf in to block and not have to worry about it.



#5 starhawk77

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 05:21 AM

Ninjawa said:

Just got KD last night and had a go at the seventh level.  I'm a bit confused by the wording of the cave troll damage effect.  Say I defend with a 1 sheild/1 HP ally and have a few other 2HP allies left. Does A)all the 4 spillover damage go on one other character killing it and stop, B) 2 goes on the first ally and 2 goes on the next ally killing both or C) I get to pick point by point and put 1 each on 4 different allies killing none?

Sorry if this has been answered before (I did do a search but couldn't find a difinitive answer).

Barring an official ruling to the contrary, the answer is C. The key phrase, as you noted, is "for each." If there is four excess damage from the initial attack, you treat each point separately. This is important because it means that you can't simply assign all the excess damage to a single Snowbourn Scout; since the damage is assigned point-by-point, the Scout will die before it can absorb more than one damage.

Keep in mind that this interaction could certainly change based on a ruling from the designers. They might have intended for the Cave Troll to only damage one additional character. Until such a clarification is issued, though, the use of "for each" definitely means excess damage is assigned point-by-point.



#6 Zjb12

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 05:45 AM

 Looking again at the card text and all your answers, could it be that if there is excess damage, the amount of excess damage must be spread out over the same amount of player characters as there is excess damage, if able.  In other words, if 3 excess damage, then you must deal 1 damage to 3 other characters if possible instead of just 3 damage to 1 character like. gandalf for example.



#7 richsabre

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 06:11 AM

Zjb12 said:

 Looking again at the card text and all your answers, could it be that if there is excess damage, the amount of excess damage must be spread out over the same amount of player characters as there is excess damage, if able.  In other words, if 3 excess damage, then you must deal 1 damage to 3 other characters if possible instead of just 3 damage to 1 character like. gandalf for example.

no i wouldnt think so, it says A character, not characters, i think it would specify if it was this


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#8 cordeirooo

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 06:38 AM

richsabre said:

Zjb12 said:

 

 Looking again at the card text and all your answers, could it be that if there is excess damage, the amount of excess damage must be spread out over the same amount of player characters as there is excess damage, if able.  In other words, if 3 excess damage, then you must deal 1 damage to 3 other characters if possible instead of just 3 damage to 1 character like. gandalf for example.

 

 

no i wouldnt think so, it says A character, not characters, i think it would specify if it was this

 

I'd agree with you here.

Also, it doesn't 'double-spill' because the effect says 'extra damage from the attack'.

The spilling damage is a effect, not an attack.


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#9 richsabre

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 08:01 AM

so whats the deal here  has this been nate frenched yet?


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#10 booored

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 09:49 AM

cordeirooo said:

Also, it doesn't 'double-spill' because the effect says 'extra damage from the attack'.

The spilling damage is a effect, not an attack.

why do you say that? The troll attacks, and that same attack resolves AFTER all dmg is applied... so this is all "the attack". The act of the dmg spilling to another character is still part of its attack.

the card says "For each excess point of combat damage dealt by Cave-troll (damage that is dealt beyond the remaining hit points of the character damaged by its attack) you must damage another character you control."

The word "character" in no way defines it to only one toon at a time. This dose not need to be written as characters. What is happening is that as the dmg is applied there is a check that occurs on the character the dmg is currently getting applied to.

So the roll attacks, there is a check to see if the dmg spills, it then damages the next character, the the same check continues.

IMO, there is little doubt that the dmg spills over. I have a rules check in with nate... so we will know soon... but I would be very surprised if this is not the case... frankly I can not even see how people could think it could be different.
 

 


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#11 cordeirooo

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 10:21 AM

Well, I'm new to this game, so if you are some kind of rules guru I'll not discuss.

 

 

I gave my opinion. A normal attack does not spill damage, so the damage spilled is an effect of the card (the Troll) not the attack itself.

 

I see the damage spilling the same way as Brand destroying a card with Rain of Arrows. He destroyed an enemy, it is an 'attack' by convention, but is obviously not an attack per game rules, so he can't use his ability.

Again, I'm new. I'm more accustomed with games like L5R-CCG where you have a very strict way of ruling, so I try to apply the same judgment in any cardgame I play. In my opinion (which is worth nothing because I'm only a player) the damage doesn't spill over and there is no reason why it should.

 

 

Oh, and sorry if I think differently.


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#12 booored

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 01:00 PM

cordeirooo said:

Well, I'm new to this game, so if you are some kind of rules guru I'll not discuss.

I gave my opinion. A normal attack does not spill damage, so the damage spilled is an effect of the card (the Troll) not the attack itself.

What is the point of posting in a forum if your not going to discuss.. that is the entire reason the forum is here. I'm not a "guru" I am just a player like you expressing an opinion.

Using Brand as your example though, Brands effect is directly linked to the attack. The untap effect resolves during the resolution of the attack itself, exactly like the troll damage spill. It is not "after" the attack.. it is an effect that happens during the attack, exactly like Dunheres attack +1 when attacking into the staging area.

Also you shouldn't be so down on yourself, your opinion is worth as much as anyone else opinions.


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#13 cordeirooo

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 01:23 PM

booored said:

cordeirooo said:

Well, I'm new to this game, so if you are some kind of rules guru I'll not discuss.

 

I gave my opinion. A normal attack does not spill damage, so the damage spilled is an effect of the card (the Troll) not the attack itself.

 

What is the point of posting in a forum if your not going to discuss.. that is the entire reason the forum is here. I'm not a "guru" I am just a player like you expressing an opinion.

Using Brand as your example though, Brands effect is directly linked to the attack. The untap effect resolves during the resolution of the attack itself, exactly like the troll damage spill. It is not "after" the attack.. it is an effect that happens during the attack, exactly like Dunheres attack +1 when attacking into the staging area.

Also you shouldn't be so down on yourself, your opinion is worth as much as anyone else opinions.

 

I always try to be as direct as possible in the internet, but this is not always possible. I'll explain myself:

I said I wasn't going to discuss IF you are some kind of rules guru; and for obvious reasons! If you work to the company making the rules for the game, why would I try to discuss? Isn't going to help anyone or anything. I really thought you were a rules guru, because I always see you answering questions here in the forums (including my own, a few weeks before).

 

Unfortunately, I really can't see the relation between the two yet, even with your example. If the Troll's ability is equal to Brand's, then you can only spill once. It would be like activating the same ability twice in the same window. It happens during the attack... once!

 

And about the 'worth nothing', I must reiterate because, reading again, really went out very badly. :(

I meant that what I say in the forums must be get with a grain of salt, because I'm 'just' a player; I do not work for the company nor am I a freelancer tester. So, my opinion is worth as much as the guy who posted the question: if he (or anyone else) want to disagree with me, by all means, he can do it.

 

Hope it cleared up! 


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#14 spirit

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 03:16 AM

I would have thought *and have played it this way myself* that the spill damage all gets assigned to one character until it's dead. If there's still spill damage after the second character then that is then ALL assigned to a third and so on. I can see no reason why you'd suddenly get to spill the damage as you please over all your heroes and allies. 



#15 Zjb12

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 03:12 PM

 I guess my thinking was in interpreting "each excess point you must damage another character," each point means another character.  Each excess point----so 3 excess points---3 characters with 1 damage, (if able).



#16 booored

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 03:51 PM

spirit said:

I would have thought *and have played it this way myself* that the spill damage all gets assigned to one character until it's dead. If there's still spill damage after the second character then that is then ALL assigned to a third and so on. I can see no reason why you'd suddenly get to spill the damage as you please over all your heroes and allies. 

 

yea that is how I do it as well... So attack, ALL dmg spill gose to next toon, remainign damage spill gose to next toon etc untill the force of the attack is finished.


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#17 Glaurung

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 08:44 PM

booored said:

spirit said:

 

I would have thought *and have played it this way myself* that the spill damage all gets assigned to one character until it's dead. If there's still spill damage after the second character then that is then ALL assigned to a third and so on. I can see no reason why you'd suddenly get to spill the damage as you please over all your heroes and allies. 

 

 

 

yea that is how I do it as well... So attack, ALL dmg spill gose to next toon, remainign damage spill gose to next toon etc untill the force of the attack is finished.

I agree with that too.I think this the right way to play it.


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#18 pumpkin

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:08 PM

 Did anyone ever get an official response to this? 

Its worded quite badly and although I think the intention is to damage spill, if taken literally you have to damage a character for each point of excess damage from the attack - what isn't clear is exactly what "damage a character" means - but a good assumption is the act of applying a single damage token to that character (although it could mean applying the full 6 attack against thrm but that would be mental hard!).

If its assumed "to damage" is to apply a single damage token to a character, then within the wording of the card there is no requirement to apply damage caused by excess damage to a single character until they die then move onto another etc, by the wording of the card each point of damage could be applied to a different character, having said all of that, the intention is probably to damage spill onto a single character until dead and repeat!

The multi defender card (stand together?) was clarified to work that way and this situation seems similar?

Anyway, was there an official response?

 

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#19 DevastazioneH88

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 09:44 PM

 I think it's quite easy to see it as : 7 points of damage…1 defense + 2 hp and arwen dies, then the remaining 4 hit points…2 to a descendant of thorondor and other two on elrohir (because maybe you've run out of allies)…also from a thematic point of view the troll does not shot a rain of arrows which hits every character in play…it smashes opponents with a giant mace…so if the first character he meets is tough enough to absorb all of it he does…if he's not than the troll gets to damage another character and so on….unil all his strenght  is out…



#20 starhawk77

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:10 PM

pumpkin said:

 

Anyway, was there an official response?

 

 

Yep. Here's booored's query and the accompanying response (culled from the cardgamedb thread):

Q: - Dose the new Cave-Troll card that spills dmg from one card to the next only do this once? Or dose the dmg spill over to a new character until the dmg runs out?
So, can this effect spill over so the Cave-Troll dmg hits 3 cards for example?

A: - The "overflow" damage is assigned point by point. If it kills off a character, there is still overflow from the attack that needs to be assigned. 






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