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Large Vehicle Deployment 'Makes you go Hmmmmm'


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#1 Khankore

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 07:18 PM

So, reading the below provided cut&paste from the rule book - and taking the 'literal' meaning of the written words, I see nothing wrong with doing the following on my large vehicle deployment activation.  ~Deploy large unit in the first open square, leaving the rear 'out of play', then ending my turn.  This would prevent any enemy from targeting my vehicle until I brought it fully onto the map, which I could do on round 2 with a move action, and still attack in that same turn. 

Now I read it over a few times, and yes - it does say that the player Must Make a Second Movement Action to enter the board, but it does not say that I need to take a second action at all...meaning, If I opt to take a second action, it must be a move, but there is nothing saying I Must make a second action.  What it does say is that IF I intend to fully enter the battle, I must make two move actions. 

"Because of their size, some large vehicles cannot fully enter the battlefield with a single move action. These units
must perform a second MOVE action to enter the battlefield
."

Now, the above text in the rule does NOT say - These units must perform a seconds MOVE action AND enter the battlefield. 

Your thoughts???  I think it would be a very interesting strategy.

-----Actual Rule Text Below -----

Entering the Battle field
Like any other unit, large vehicles must use a MOVE action to enter the battlefield.

Until they are completely on the battlefield, large vehicles cannot perform any actions other
than the MOVE action, and cannot be targeted by an attack.

Because of their size, some large vehicles cannot fully enter the battlefield with a single move action. These units
must perform a second MOVE action to enter the battlefield.


Example: During the first round, a Königsluther is entering the battlefield. Its
first action for the round must be a MOVE, which puts both of its front legs on the
board (diagram A). But that’s not enough for the walker to be “in play.” So, the Axis
player must perform a second move action (diagram B) for the Königsluther to fully
enter the battlefield (MOVE + MOVE).


To enter the board, the Königsluther had to spend both of its actions, so it must wait
until its next activation to perform more actions. Now that it is fully on the board, the
Königsluther can be targeted by enemy units.



#2 Dakkon426

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 08:26 PM

Until they are completely on the battlefield, large vehicles cannot perform any actions otherthan the MOVE action, and cannot be targeted by an attack.
--
So you cannot perform any actions other then move means you must use the second action to move and may not hold position. So as long as you use both actions to move your fine until the FAQ is updated to explicitly prevent you from keeping it partially out of play. Also I would like to note that the diagram implies that the unit must be fully in play at the time it is deployed. I would think this would be explicitly forbidden in a rules update. The Vehicle needs to be fully in play for it to be in play so I think it would count as a delayed deployment which is not allowed normally.

 



#3 Dcal12

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 12:25 AM

As you pointed out on page 12 of Cerberus "large vehicles cannot perform any actions other than move action..." 

Then you need to look at page 7 of the revised rulebook and see what is listed as actions:

Move

Attack

Skill

Nothing

Sustained Attack.

So by moving one square and then doing nothing, I would say that is in violation of the rules.



#4 Loophole Master

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 01:18 AM

I see absolutely nothing wrong with deciding to leave your heavy walker only half-deployed in the first round. During the game, a unit can chose to make a single Move and nothing else in that round, even though it could take another action. Likewise, during the deployment, you could chose to use only one Move to place it halfway inside the board, but leave the 2nd deployment move for a later round. Your walker is out of harm's way, but it's also wasting precious time, it's your choice.



#5 Dcal12

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 01:23 AM

But doing nothing is an action and the only actions allowed are move actions. 



#6 felkor

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 02:24 AM

Dcal12 is certainly right.

However, there is a way around it.  You could do it at the corner of the board, so your first movement only brings one square of the walker into play, and your second move just brings the 2nd square of the walker into play.



#7 Loophole Master

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 02:33 AM

Hell, if we're just looking for loopholes, you can make the first Move normally, entering the board, and then use the 2nd Move to go sideways, still retaining half the walker outside the board.



#8 felkor

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 03:03 AM

Possibly, although I would take, "These units must perform a second MOVE action to enter the battlefield" to mean that the moves must mean the walker is progressing at "entering the battlefield", which would mean at least more of the walker being on the battlefield than before.

Of course, all this is just splitting hairs - how they intend the game to be played in this situation is painstakingly clear.



#9 Dcal12

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 03:25 AM

These are all great ideas, then I could actually just leave half my unit off the table while I move across the table (along the edge) and only bring it on when I want to or maybe just wait until i get to the otherside of the table.  Nothing loopy about that at all.



#10 mariettabrit

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 03:42 AM

Dcal12 said:

These are all great ideas, then I could actually just leave half my unit off the table while I move across the table (along the edge) and only bring it on when I want to or maybe just wait until i get to the otherside of the table.  Nothing loopy about that at all.

 

Nothing like playing in the spirit of the game either :)



#11 Dcal12

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 03:48 AM

mariettabrit said:

Dcal12 said:

 

These are all great ideas, then I could actually just leave half my unit off the table while I move across the table (along the edge) and only bring it on when I want to or maybe just wait until i get to the otherside of the table.  Nothing loopy about that at all.

 

 

 

Nothing like playing in the spirit of the game either :)

I am so glad the people I play against, do play in the spirit of the game.  It reminds me of another game where someone said it was perfectly legal to place his mounted horse calvary unit in a jeep, because the unit was a soldier unit and jeeps could transport soldiers.



#12 Ulrike Meinhof

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 04:14 AM

Dcal12 said:

I am so glad the people I play against, do play in the spirit of the game.  It reminds me of another game where someone said it was perfectly legal to place his mounted horse calvary unit in a jeep, because the unit was a soldier unit and jeeps could transport soldiers.

 

*rofl*

I prefer to not play people like that since they are usually playing to win with any means necessary, while I play to enjoy myself and have fun, even if that means I will try something non-optimal or lose the game. It's a fundamentally different perspective on gaming: For them the game is almost a pain where they have to perform, instead of being something that is relaxing that allows you to have a jolly time.



#13 Loophole Master

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 04:20 AM

Dcal12 said:

These are all great ideas, then I could actually just leave half my unit off the table while I move across the table (along the edge) and only bring it on when I want to or maybe just wait until i get to the otherside of the table.  Nothing loopy about that at all.

Hahahahaha! And they call me "loophole master", that's truly geniously ridiculous.



#14 Ulrike Meinhof

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 04:27 AM

 Kahnkore

 

"Because of their size, some large vehicles cannot fully enter the battlefield with a single move action. These units
must perform a second MOVE action to enter the battlefield."

 

You can read a text literary, or you can read it in a way which is not literary but which will be closer to what you think that the authors intended with the text. Language is means of communication. It has, most of the time, no value in itself. It's value lies in what functionality it has for us as users of it, as speakers/readers. The function of the rules are to tell the players how the game can and can't be played according to it's designers. To tell us about what they think is legal or not.

While I can agree with most people that make claim that the DT ruleset is very sloppy and informal, directed to the average joe rather than the very experienced gamer (which I think is ok and good decision, but a mistake to not have  a PDF somewhere with the more formal rules... a FAQ is simply not enough) it makes itself an easy target for the kind of examinations and loophole-searching you are seeking in the literary meaning of the language within it.

However, language can usually not be properly understood without a context and/or knowing the intentions of the message. The words "n i g g e r" and "b i t c h" are two crude examples of that. Ask yourself if you honestly believe that the designers + authors intended for you to interpret the rules the way you do in your original post. I guess you will come to the right conclusion. Meaning, please forget about doing a literary reading of a ruleset that is at the very basic level of Dust Tactics. It won't hold. Only time you should do literary readings, if ever, is when you read a ruleset that has been tested for such reading and written with such a target group in mind. An example of that are the comprehensive rules for Magic The Gathering (yeah, very fun reading).

 

 

 

 

 



#15 Major Mishap

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:45 AM

With the text "... MUSTperform a move action to enter" and the accompaning diagram, seems pretty straight forward to me, I'm just glad I don't play with rule lawyers :/



#16 felkor

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:58 AM

Major Mishap said:

With the text "... MUSTperform a move action to enter" and the accompaning diagram, seems pretty straight forward to me, I'm just glad I don't play with rule lawyers :/

 

I'm just glad I play with people who don't own the game and haven't read the rules, so I can just tell them whatever I want and they'll believe me.  Muahahaha



#17 Dcal12

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 09:17 AM

felkor said:

Major Mishap said:

 

With the text "... MUSTperform a move action to enter" and the accompaning diagram, seems pretty straight forward to me, I'm just glad I don't play with rule lawyers :/

 

 

 

I'm just glad I play with people who don't own the game and haven't read the rules, so I can just tell them whatever I want and they'll believe me.  Muahahaha

What do you mean your unit with unlimited range can sit over on that shelf and just shoot at whatever it wants?????????????



#18 Wombattangofoxtrot

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 10:47 AM

Major Mishap said:

With the text "... MUSTperform a move action to enter" and the accompaning diagram, seems pretty straight forward to me, I'm just glad I don't play with rule lawyers :/

...pretty ...straight ...forward.   



#19 Loophole Master

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:30 AM

Ok, but what about if, either intentionally or by accident, the heavy walker has its second deployment move blocked? Take the example below:

The axis attacker deployed his first two tanks and now he wants to deploy his heavy walker, however, until those tanks move, it's impossible for the heavy walker to perform the 2nd move that will get it fully inside the board. What happens then? Can he park the heavy walker half-deployed, and wait for the next round to fully deploy? Is he prevented from deploying the heavy walker this round, and is allowed to do it next round? Is he prevented from using his heavy walker at all throughout this match?!



#20 Gimp

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:27 AM

If it can't do the two move actions required to enter the battlefield, it couldn't enter the battlefield that turn.  The heavy would be forced to wait off the board until there was a place they could enter.  The rules state a unit's first action must be to enter the battlefield, so the heavy could not act until it could do so.

It would be a foolish player that set themselves up like that, as heavies need to be able to take as many shots as they can to make sure they earn their point cost back.






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