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R'LYEH <--- Need your input on this Adventure Card


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#1 Regulator18

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:01 AM

Hello, so we have played a number of games of Elder Sign and I was able to figure out most of the rules (even though some are confusing and not very clear).  There is one issue I havent seen addressed in the forums yet and wanted to get everyones input on it.

On the Adventure Card "R'LYEH" its first task is a 1 Investigation followed by another 1 Investigation with a white border.  Lets ignore the white border and the partial monster task aspect to this card and just assume you are completing this first task without a monster on it.

Can you use just 1 die to complete the task and cover both of the markers on the task?  For example, If I roll the dice, can I pull out a die that has a 2 Investigation and use this to cover both markers (1 investigation and 1 investigation marker)?  Or do I have to use 1 die for each marker slot on the task?  The rules don't address this, and I went through all the adventure cards, this is the only Adventure card that this scenario could possibly occur on. 

My guess is that you can use just 1 die to cover both of the markers for the task (as long as that die has 2 or more investigation on it).  I don't see why you wouldnt be able to do this, since the point of the task is to have a total of 2 investigation in order to complete it.  And the rules allow for extra dice to be used to complete tasks, so why wouldnt it allow for fewer dice too, right?  Anyways, what does everyone else think? 



#2 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:13 AM

I think you need to put 2 diffrent investigation results to complete this task.

Because for example you don't solve two lore's with 1 lore die or 1 wildcard die. You need two dies for this.

Also, it's separate because monster may adjust it, and if it's not - it still provides some challenge. 


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#3 Regulator18

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:37 AM

MyNeighbourTrololo said:

I think you need to put 2 diffrent investigation results to complete this task.

Because for example you don't solve two lore's with 1 lore die or 1 wildcard die. You need two dies for this.

Also, it's separate because monster may adjust it, and if it's not - it still provides some challenge. 

 

 

Your right in that its seperate so that a monster can adjust it, but lets just ignore that aspect for now and assume that there is no monster on it. 

In no scenario would a die ever be able to cover 2 markers on a single task, EXCEPT on this R'LYEH adventure card (I went through every card).  Because this is the only adventure card that allows for 2 Investigation markers to be side by side.  In your example your also right that you would not be able to solve two lore's with 1 lore die, But lore dies are never associated with a number on them like Investigation dice are.  So, it is possible for an Investigation die to have a "2" on it, thus counting towards 2 points of Investigation for example. 



#4 xris

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:04 AM

For the situation you describe you are incorrect. You will need at a minimum 2 dice.

From the rules on page 6.

Completing a Task
When an investigator completes a task, for each of its
requirements that corresponds to a specific die result,
the player places a die with that result on top of the
corresponding requirement
.
In the case of investigation results, a player may need to place
more than one die on the card to meet the task’s requirements.

This to me is clear that you need at least one die per requirement ("for each of its requirements that corresponds to a specific die result"). The Task consists of 1 Investigation and 1 Investigation. It is not a single requirement of 2 Investigations.



#5 Regulator18

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:02 AM

xris said:

For the situation you describe you are incorrect. You will need at a minimum 2 dice.

From the rules on page 6.

Completing a Task
When an investigator completes a task, for each of its
requirements that corresponds to a specific die result,
the player places a die with that result on top of the
corresponding requirement
.
In the case of investigation results, a player may need to place
more than one die on the card to meet the task’s requirements.

This to me is clear that you need at least one die per requirement ("for each of its requirements that corresponds to a specific die result"). The Task consists of 1 Investigation and 1 Investigation. It is not a single requirement of 2 Investigations.

 

Well I'm not incorrect or correct, since all of us are just guessing here, since it is not defined in the rulebook.  I do understand however what you are referring too on page 6.  At first I thought the same thing you did as well, then I read page 6 over many times.  And it does say "the player places a die with that result on top of the corresponding requirement".  If you went strictly by this definition then there are many cards that have an investigation requirement of 9 for example, well you cant possibly put just 1 die over this requirement to complete it.  It would take you at least three dice to complete this one requirement.  Thus as you pointed out, the rules on page 6 also go on to say "In the case of the investigation results, a player may need to place more then one die on the card to meet the task's requirements."  And, even if you went strictly by the first definition, theres nothing stopping you from taking an investigation die with a 2 on it and placing it over the corresponding 2 requirements (in this case placing the die half way over both requirements on the task).  It would logically make sense that if you can have more then 1 die complete a task with one requirement, that you could have 1 die complete two requirements for a single task  (otherwise the game creators would not have gone out of their way to show that the Investigation die results play out differently, and thus you can put down more then one die per requirement and even have your investigation go over the amount needed, basically saying, whatever is needed to complete that task).  It seems to me they are saying that the amount of dice used is irrelevant as long as the task can be completed.

 

But, here is the telling part from page 6 of the rulebook that really helps define it for me.  Page 6 says "After rolling the dice, the player compares the results to the requirements listed for each task on the Adventure card his Investigator marker is on.  If the player is able and willing to meet all of the requirements for a single task, he completes that task."  That tells me we need to look at the entire task as a whole (much like we do when you have an investigation of 9 for a requirement and thus you need 3 dice to complete the task) not just at the seperate requirements.  So for the R'LYEH Adventure Card you need to have a total of 2 points of Investigation to complete the first task.  If I rolled the dice and one of the dice rolled a 3 Investigation, this 3 Investigation is sufficient to complete the task.  To put it in game terms: My Investigator characters Investigation skills are sufficient to solve the mystery of the first task.  It wouldnt make sense for my character to roll a 3 or a 4 Investigation, only to fail the task that requires 2 Investigation. 

 

Again, nothing is clear in the rulebook either way, so its all personal opinions at this point.  But I do appreciate your input and if you have any more thoughts on the matter would love to hear it as I belive this single Adventure Card brings up an interesting conundrum in the rules that are not defined.  And would still like to hear the opinions from everyone else out there too. 

 



#6 Dam

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 09:08 PM

No way I'm I seeing the OP's interpretation. Why would they print R'lyeh "1 Investigation + 1 Investigation" for the first task in R'lyeh if they meant 2 Investigation? Each box is its own requirement and requires its own di©e. R'lyeh to me requires six dice to complete, simple as that (six separate boxes). What the last quoted bit means that if you can't complete the full row, you can't partially complete the row. So for the second row in R'lyeh (Lore, Lore, Peril, Terror), rolling 5 Lore and 1 Terror, you can't drop down three of those dice and reroll the other three, you didn't meet all the requirements.


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#7 The Professor

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 08:48 AM

I'm with Dam on this one.  Remember, you're in R'lyeh, not the Other World version of CandyLand!  This one should be hard...very hard.  As such, you must sacrifice a precious die fpor each of the requirements and not permitted to satisy those requirements, such as a 1 Investigation and a 1 Investigation with on one die revealing 2 or more Investigations.


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#8 Regulator18

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 03:38 PM

Dam said:

No way I'm I seeing the OP's interpretation. Why would they print R'lyeh "1 Investigation + 1 Investigation" for the first task in R'lyeh if they meant 2 Investigation? Each box is its own requirement and requires its own di©e. R'lyeh to me requires six dice to complete, simple as that (six separate boxes). What the last quoted bit means that if you can't complete the full row, you can't partially complete the row. So for the second row in R'lyeh (Lore, Lore, Peril, Terror), rolling 5 Lore and 1 Terror, you can't drop down three of those dice and reroll the other three, you didn't meet all the requirements.

Jeez, why does everyone have to be so hostile.  You can let everyone know what you think without attacking me.  I feel compelled to defend myself now, like I'm under siege.  To answer your question of "Why would they print R'lyeh with 1 Investigation +1 Investigation if they meant 2 Investigation", the answer is simple, Its setup that way, because the second square of 1 Investigation has a white border around it and the first one does not, so the second square  could be replaced by a Monster Marker at some point. 

Again, I'm not saying my interpretation, is correct, its just simply my interpretation.  But I think if I roll a 3 or a 4 Investigation on one die, this should be sufficient to complete the task of 2 Investigation.   It doesnt matter if they seperated them out as 1 Investigation and 1 Investigation, Its the task as a whole we are looking at.  Besides, I think the reason they seperated them here is so that one could be covered by a monster token and not so it would take another die to complete.  I truly think that both ways of looking at this could be considered correct though.  Trying to judge the intent of the game creators is simply a guessing game.  I only wish the recent FAQ had addressed it, but I would have to imagine that this will come up again in the future if they ever decide to make expansions to this game.



#9 hebus

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 09:18 PM

And if you put a Monster starting with 1 "investigator" task, how you resolve that task ?

If you say 2 dice : one for the first "investigator" and one for the monster, this task without the monster is the same

Otherwise use the same as you said, one die with one investigator or more.

For me, forget the white border... this white's border says only, this task could be replaced by a monster. Otherwise resolves this task as a monster.



#10 OneX

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 11:34 AM

If I recall correctly, on Elder Sign: Omens it requires you to use a separate die for each investigation. Now that's not to say that ES:O is always right (especially since the ES errata) but in this case I'd default to how ES:O does it :)



#11 Paulo_JMS

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 02:29 PM

Don't complicate the game! It takes two dices, the adventure has to be hard, it's R'lyeh! Just look at the rewards, three signs and one ally!



#12 Regulator18

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 05:40 PM

Paulo_JMS said:

Don't complicate the game! It takes two dices, the adventure has to be hard, it's R'lyeh! Just look at the rewards, three signs and one ally!

 

Don't complicate the game?, LOL, its too late for that.  I mean your commenting on a forum that in large part helps clarify already complicated and ambiguous rules for everyone.  This post is no different.  The original rulebook was simply not clear enough on a number of aspects of the game, this being one of them.  The rules simply do not say that it takes two dice, we have been over this already in this post. 

I think the Game Designers will have to address this question eventually since we can go round and round forever on this one.  While I agree that the rewards on the card are substantial and one could imply that because the rewards are so high it would thus take two dice, this would still only be a guess.    Unfortunately we still have no rule for it (wauh wauh).  Making a rule that says "each box requires at least one die" would certainly solve the problem for the card, but from a design stand point it would also limit the flexibility of the game for any future expansions.  What if they wanted to include alot more cards like this, or what if they wanted to include special rare dice that might have a spot for say a Lore sign X2 (thus allowing you two complete 2 Lore signs within a task using this one die) Etc, Etc.  And lets not forget the rulebook does not state I need a die for each box, only that I need enough signs to cover the task. 

Honestly I don't care what they decide, we can guess all we want, in the end it will be the game designers decision that decides the fate for all humanity (BUM BUM BUUUUM!!). 



#13 xris

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:07 AM

Regulator18 said:

Don't complicate the game?, LOL, its too late for that.  I mean your commenting on a forum that in large part helps clarify already complicated and ambiguous rules for everyone.  This post is no different.  The original rulebook was simply not clear enough on a number of aspects of the game, this being one of them.  The rules simply do not say that it takes two dice, we have been over this already in this post. 

I think the Game Designers will have to address this question eventually since we can go round and round forever on this one.  While I agree that the rewards on the card are substantial and one could imply that because the rewards are so high it would thus take two dice, this would still only be a guess.    Unfortunately we still have no rule for it (wauh wauh).  Making a rule that says "each box requires at least one die" would certainly solve the problem for the card, but from a design stand point it would also limit the flexibility of the game for any future expansions.  What if they wanted to include alot more cards like this, or what if they wanted to include special rare dice that might have a spot for say a Lore sign X2 (thus allowing you two complete 2 Lore signs within a task using this one die) Etc, Etc.  And lets not forget the rulebook does not state I need a die for each box, only that I need enough signs to cover the task. 

Honestly I don't care what they decide, we can guess all we want, in the end it will be the game designers decision that decides the fate for all humanity (BUM BUM BUUUUM!!). 

Oh for Pete's sake, are you still whinging on about this pet peeve of yours

Look, the rulebook does tell you how to deal with this situation, if you want to ignore that fact, fine just play it the way you want. I'm sure very few people here really care!

You say that the rules do not state anywhere that you need at least one die per "box". For a start, why are you using the term "box", the term you are looking for is a "requirement". Look at the bottom of page 5 and the top of page 6 of the rules.

Each Adventure card features one or more horizontal rows of symbols
Each symbol represents a requirement necessary to complete the task

This tells us that a "Task" is made up of a number of "requirements"  (what you are calling a "box"). Now we look at page 6 again under Completing a Task.

When an investigator completes a task, for each of its requirements that corresponds to a specific die result, the player places a die with that result on top of the corresponding requirement.

This tells you that you require at least one die per requirement. How in the world does this rule work of you could place a single "2 Investigation" result on two separate "1 Investigation" requirements? How is it possible to put that one single "2 Investigation" die on both requirements?



#14 Regulator18

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:04 PM

xris said:

Regulator18 said:

Don't complicate the game?, LOL, its too late for that.  I mean your commenting on a forum that in large part helps clarify already complicated and ambiguous rules for everyone.  This post is no different.  The original rulebook was simply not clear enough on a number of aspects of the game, this being one of them.  The rules simply do not say that it takes two dice, we have been over this already in this post. 

 

I think the Game Designers will have to address this question eventually since we can go round and round forever on this one.  While I agree that the rewards on the card are substantial and one could imply that because the rewards are so high it would thus take two dice, this would still only be a guess.    Unfortunately we still have no rule for it (wauh wauh).  Making a rule that says "each box requires at least one die" would certainly solve the problem for the card, but from a design stand point it would also limit the flexibility of the game for any future expansions.  What if they wanted to include alot more cards like this, or what if they wanted to include special rare dice that might have a spot for say a Lore sign X2 (thus allowing you two complete 2 Lore signs within a task using this one die) Etc, Etc.  And lets not forget the rulebook does not state I need a die for each box, only that I need enough signs to cover the task. 

Honestly I don't care what they decide, we can guess all we want, in the end it will be the game designers decision that decides the fate for all humanity (BUM BUM BUUUUM!!). 

 

Oh for Pete's sake, are you still whinging on about this pet peeve of yours

Look, the rulebook does tell you how to deal with this situation, if you want to ignore that fact, fine just play it the way you want. I'm sure very few people here really care!

You say that the rules do not state anywhere that you need at least one die per "box". For a start, why are you using the term "box", the term you are looking for is a "requirement". Look at the bottom of page 5 and the top of page 6 of the rules.

Each Adventure card features one or more horizontal rows of symbols
Each symbol represents a requirement necessary to complete the task

This tells us that a "Task" is made up of a number of "requirements"  (what you are calling a "box"). Now we look at page 6 again under Completing a Task.

When an investigator completes a task, for each of its requirements that corresponds to a specific die result, the player places a die with that result on top of the corresponding requirement.

This tells you that you require at least one die per requirement. How in the world does this rule work of you could place a single "2 Investigation" result on two separate "1 Investigation" requirements? How is it possible to put that one single "2 Investigation" die on both requirements?

 

Oh for Pete's sake, are you still attacking me, can you not get over this personal kick of yours to attack me

I have never been whining, I'm only responding to peoples post they have directed at me, mainly yours.  You could have responded with your opinion instead of how you approached it.  I don't appreciate either one of your posts.

Why do you feel the need to attack me on the word "box" and point out the bottom of page 6 that its called a "requirement" and I should be calling it a "requirement"?   I already called it a "requirement" in my very first post, but it still doesnt change the fact that its also a box so why do you care?  Are you purposefully trying to be malicious?

You still don't seem to be getting the rulebook, the problem is on page 6, it tells us two different ways on how to handle it.  It says "the player places a die with that result on top of the corresponding requirement. "  But you are taking this out of context, because later it states "In the case of investigation results, a player may need to place more than one die on the card to meet the task's requirements"  and most importantly right before that it says "If the player is able and willing to meet all of the rquirements for a single task, he completes that task."

So like i have stated before, what we have here, is the rulebook essentially telling us two conflicting ways to approach how to complete a task.  In other words two ways of looking at it.  I already presented both of these arguements in my very first post and carefully stated that either one of them could be true.  You can certainly have your opinion on one and make a good case for it, thats great.  But you don't have to bash other people on theirs, thats just not needed, C'mon lighten up.  Can't everyone just get along. 



#15 Julia

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:15 AM

Hi guys,

my two cent on this issue. I second Xris's opinion. Regulator, I don't know whether you are familiar with Arkham Horror or not. If you were, you'd have noticed that R'lyeh is the toughest of all the Other Worlds. It's a pain journey through it, the encounters are pure pain, and the gate is horribly difficult to close.

Clearly, ES is not AH, but the two games have many similarities (basically, they are almost the same game, one dice - and the other card-driven. Plus, the award for passing the R'lyeh task is *huge*

The rules seem pretty clear to me too. As for the sentence you quote:

- "In the case of investigation results, a player may need to place more than one die on the card to meet the task's requirements"

This implies that you may use more than one die to fulfil the requirements of a task. Let's say you have a 6-investigation requirement. There is no way on Earth you can fulfil it with just one die, you need to use at least two dice. But the sentence you quote doesn't imply that one die can be used for several requirements

- "If the player is able and willing to meet all of the rquirements for a single task, he completes that task."

Again, "meeting all requirements" means (to me) that you need to have dice for all of them, but nowhere it's written you can have a number of dice lesser than the number of requirements.

So yes, I play you need two different dice to pass the first R'lyeh task. This means you have to go there very well equipped, with spells, items to discard, items allowing you to change dice results, and so on

 


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