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Leaving a Casting Career


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#1 Romus

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 02:16 PM

 The official FAQ says:

Leaving a Casting Career


If a character chooses to leave a priest or wizard career, mechanically he does not lose the ability to invoke blessings or cast spells.  However, he does lose access to the corresponding Faith or Order  specialty card if his current career does not have the appropriate
socket to hold the specialty card.

If the character has the proper skills acquired or trained, favour/power can still be generated and blessings/spells can still be performed – just without the benefit of the ability granted by the Faith/Order card.

From a setting standpoint, such a career transition is highly unusual. Leaving an established Empire Cult or the Colleges of Magic  would meet with suspicion, questions, and possibly persecution. A wizard leaving the sanctioned and approved Colleges of Magic could well be branded a hedge wizard, sorceror, or dangerous renegade and find himself targetted by zealous Witch Hunters.

But 2 things come to mind.

1. Can a character go from being a mage, and turn to follow a god, and become a priest?

2. Why couldn't a character still be considered "Still a Wizard of the Order" but dabble in other things as long as it makes sense?  For example, let's say I have a Grey Wizard, who is out traveling the lands, with permission from his Order of course, and during his travel he transitions out of initiate Career, say to investigator, and then back into Initiate? To all outward appearances the character never left the order, he is just not practicing as much as he should, with all this time spent investigating. Rules wise, he takes a detour into investigator before going to Acolyte. 

 

I think in most cases you would just pick up non career skills to do the same thing, but I don't see why as soon as you spent a point in another career, everyone around you suddenly goes "WTF" like they magically know you left your Grey Order.



#2 doc_cthulhu

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 06:57 PM

Isn't there a Talent that allows you to socket "non-career talents"?

I think the main reasoning behind this is that a Grey Wizard doing investigations is still foremost a grey wizard even though his activities are directed to same interests as an Investigator. The career stand for the character's social standing and out-of-adventure action also.

Such an Investigator Wizard could use his out-of-career advances to take thing Investigators would take but as his main interest is in the magic he would much more likely follow that path. 

And mechanically speaking allowing wizards to train other careers as well could ruin what is left of game balance.


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#3 valvorik

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 10:15 AM

doc_cthulhu said:


Isn't there a Talent that allows you to socket "non-career talents"?

 

 

 

There is the Focus talent "Creative Thinking" that allows putting any sort of Talent card into the slot while it recharges.

HOWEVER, is a Faith or Order card a "talent card".  It is a "speciality card"., for example page 47 of Tome of Mysteries describes the "speciality card" and notes the slot for it is a "special kind of socket call an Order socket, where one of the normal talent sockets would appear".  I believe this indicates that this is not a "talent".  It is something else you get instead of a talent and talent socket on that careeri.

So "Creative Thinking" wouldn't apply mechanically in my view.

Narratively/roleplaying wise, I think it is fitting to view the benefits of the Order and Faith cards as belonging only to those with the dedication of currently (not just at some point in past) focusing on such matters (being having a current career with the Order or Faith socket).

I have a Player who is an Order of Light wizard but had an Apothecary Career (fit with background) he would switch back and forth with.  He did not get is Order card benefits in sessions he was Apothecary.  There were no complaints/arguments about it and it worked fine.  We agreed his order would not have an issue with this as the career fit with his College (e.g., it would not have been easy on him if he was flipping back and forth being a charlatan).

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#4 dvang

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:20 AM

1. Technically, yes a PC could go from Wizard to priest, or vice versa. There are challenges to doing this, mostly due to RP reasons. Of course, characteristics between the two careers only slightly mesh too, as well as the need to purchase several advanced skills in order to cast spells/blessings, so it is an expensive proposition (in XP).

2. As Doc mentioned, a wizard who is dabbling in another field of study can use his XP to purchase skills or characteristics outside of their wizard career. Changing careers means that the wizard no longer has a primary focus or desire to be a wizard, and is dedicating themselves to a different career pursuit.

A career represents the character's philosophy and social standing, as much as it does their "job". Changing careers is more than just changing the focus of the skills they want to improve/learn.  It is changing their mentality and focus as well.  A PC who changes from a wizard career to a non-wizard career is saying that the PC no longer wishes to follow or believes in the wizard career.  They don't suddenly lose their ability to cast spells they have already learned, but they have made a decision that being a wizard (as defined by the Colleges of Magic) is no longer of interest to them. 



#5 Romus

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:55 AM

dvang said:

1. Technically, yes a PC could go from Wizard to priest, or vice versa. There are challenges to doing this, mostly due to RP reasons. Of course, characteristics between the two careers only slightly mesh too, as well as the need to purchase several advanced skills in order to cast spells/blessings, so it is an expensive proposition (in XP).

2. As Doc mentioned, a wizard who is dabbling in another field of study can use his XP to purchase skills or characteristics outside of their wizard career. Changing careers means that the wizard no longer has a primary focus or desire to be a wizard, and is dedicating themselves to a different career pursuit.

A career represents the character's philosophy and social standing, as much as it does their "job". Changing careers is more than just changing the focus of the skills they want to improve/learn.  It is changing their mentality and focus as well.  A PC who changes from a wizard career to a non-wizard career is saying that the PC no longer wishes to follow or believes in the wizard career.  They don't suddenly lose their ability to cast spells they have already learned, but they have made a decision that being a wizard (as defined by the Colleges of Magic) is no longer of interest to them. 

Are there any major characters in Warhammer history that are both Wizard and Priest?



#6 Fresnel

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 07:49 AM

dvang said:

A career represents the character's philosophy and social standing, as much as it does their "job". Changing careers is more than just changing the focus of the skills they want to improve/learn.  It is changing their mentality and focus as well.  A PC who changes from a wizard career to a non-wizard career is saying that the PC no longer wishes to follow or believes in the wizard career.  They don't suddenly lose their ability to cast spells they have already learned, but they have made a decision that being a wizard (as defined by the Colleges of Magic) is no longer of interest to them. 

I think you need to qualify these statements as 'in your opinion'. The degree to which the WFRP career mechanics intrude into character pyschology is a question left open to individual game groups.

Having said this, religous careers obviously do dicate a strong pyschological impact on a character. The faith and devotion required to invoke blessings in particular is certainly a huge commitment. Whereas I think wizards pursuing side-careers is both perfectly fine game-wise and is fine by the Colleges (as attested to in canon WoM p18), imo a religious career is a step-beyond.

Wizards have an existing, highly trained understanding and relationship with the aetheric. Priests have a different method of 'casting' - in fact they don't think they are generating 'magical' effects at all - but it's hinted at in the fluff that they are. I don't think a wizard's knowing academic approach and the priest's faith/dogma approach could both function in the same mind. But this is only my humble opinion.

 

 

 



#7 dvang

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 06:35 AM

True. This is 'in my opinion'. I'll also add that it is also the opinion of the game designers, as evidenced by their notation in the FAQ.  Yes, a GM may allow this sort of transition however they want, and not "break" any game rules. 

It is against the fluff of the game world, though.



#8 Brottok

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:52 AM

I think it´s up to the group to decide how they would like the rules/world to behave and perhaps have the Core rules as a guide to implement their own house rules.

I dont see any problem with a wizard "breaking" his spellcasting career and go into investigation, as long as he still reads his spells and memorize them as in D&D or how it works here in the warhammer world. But he wont be able to improve those skills as he is not doing the amount of training in those skill to improve them. Its not like he forgot how he did cast spells from the day before: Hmmm... I know I cast this spell yesterday and I have been casting this spell for 10 years now, but suddenly i forgot how to do it... Strange?! Dont u think? The only way I can come up with how a mage will forget his spells is either: Amnesia, losing his spellbook, chaos or godly intervention.

 

And priest... Why wouldnt they be able to break career? Its not like they stop believe in their god! There are many careers that I personally think is a good way for a beliver to take: Witch Hunter is one, Templar is another, and Scouts for Taal, Fisherman for Manaan etc etc. And again I think the Gods know when their servant believe in them or not. And if they dont, they dont get to use any blessing. If they do they can use/be/do whatever they want as long as they abide the rules for the God. I had a player who where a priest and once and all was well and he continued down the priest careers to become more mighty/better. But  while we played he cursed his god, not in story mode but outside when all went against him. I stripped him from his powers and he didnt understand why. After that he cursed the god more and didnt understand why he couldnt cast blessings. Perhaps I should have given him a clue/hint or something but I thought he should have understood why.

 

All in all, let your players keep their spellcasting abilities as long you the GM think its ok, a spellcaster cant cast spells in full armour etc etc. Because its not fun to see every xp a player has invested in their character go to waste because they dont want to invest more into those skills, this is Warhammers strength to change careers and still have use of your old abilities.

 

Sorry for the long post :D



#9 dvang

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:10 AM

Brottok,

The FAQ clarifies that a wizard/priest do not lose their ability to cast spells/blessings. So there is no need to talk or discuss the idea of them forgetting how to do things.

What we are talking about is leaving a wizard/priest career for another career, and then potentially returning to the wizard/priest career.

It isn't about forgetting anything. It is about the character's philisophical bent, as well as the societies that the PC belonged to. Changing careers is more significant than just altering what skills the PC can take. It is a mental and philisophical change as well. A career help determine and represent what a PC's focus, motivation, desires and goals, etc. are.

So, there are essentially two sticking points, and I'll see if I can explain them better.

1) Careers in WFRP are not just 'jobs' or 'occupations'. They are the embodiment 'careers'. There is a difference in attitude, desire, and motivation between the two. A career represents more than just learning and doing certain skills, or performing certain actions, but is additionally a reflection of the character and what their goals are and how they want to grow. By leaving a career, a character is essentially saying they have gone through a change event, and their character philosophy no longer considers that old career as something to pursue. In the case of specializaed careers that require high-dedication, such as Wizards and priests, it is a dramatic character outlook shift not that should not be easily repaired or "taken back" later.

2) In Warhammer, the societies for Wizards and Priests tend to be *very* clique-ish and jealous of their power and members. They are a tight-bonded group. Forsaking the pursuits of the order and the order's ideals is turning your back on the order. It is not something generally lightly forgiven.

A lot of the confusion, I think, stems from #1 not being understood by people, so I'll reiterate. A WFRP career is more than just a job that dictates what skills you can train. If a PC wants to train skills outside of his career, they can do so. Changing careers is more of a life-changing event, especially if the progression is to a dissimilar career.  You really need to consider the Wizard and Priest lines as being similar to the Dwarf Trollslayer line of careers.  A Dwarf Trollslayer should find it difficult to advance/change to a career other than a GiantSlayer, due to the nature of the Trollslayer career.  If something unusual story-wise should occur, it might be possible, but highly-improbable. If it does, the chances of the PC later returning to being a Slayer of any sort are/should be astronomical and not lightly undertaken by a player nor a GM.  Treat wizards and priests in Warhammer the same way. It should take an immense story-change for a wizard or priest to leave their career path, and an even larger one to let them return to it.

 

That said, there is nothing in the rules to actually prohibit such changes. WFRP3 is very good at giving the GM and players freedom.  As I mentioned, the above is my opinion based on my knowledge of, and experience with, the warhammer fantasy world lore, as well as the notes that FFG stated in the FAQ regarding career changes for wizards and priests.



#10 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:18 AM

You guys should take a look at Winds of Magic. They discuss this very issue.


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#11 Fresnel

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:14 PM

dvang said:

True. This is 'in my opinion'. I'll also add that it is also the opinion of the game designers, as evidenced by their notation in the FAQ.  Yes, a GM may allow this sort of transition however they want, and not "break" any game rules. 

It is against the fluff of the game world, though.

Claiming to certain knowledge of other's opinions is a bold act... It would advise great caution before doing so again.

In any case the FAQ entry on leaving a casting career predates WoM and imo was thin evidence for your claim pre-WoM. You need to review WoM p18 where this subject is discussed in detail (or as in detail as WFRP3 ever gets). Your personal position on this issue is perfectly respectable - your claim that it is the one-true-way is not. 



#12 Fresnel

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:17 PM

dvang said:

A lot of the confusion, I think, stems from #1 not being understood by people, so I'll reiterate.

Yes, we are stupid. Please repeat your point at greater length until it gets through our thick skulls.



#13 dvang

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 07:23 AM

Fresnel, there is no need to be rude or start making personal attacks. I never said anyone was stupid. "misunderstanding" something does not equal "stupid". I am sorry if you, for whatever reason, took it that way.  My intent was not to suggest that anyone was stupid or incompetent. Even the most brilliant minds can sometimes misinterpret or misunderstand something.  It merely seemed to me that much of the discussion regarding these career transitions were various people looking at careers as "classes" or "jobs" that merely indicated what their PC could learn. I believe that if people look at careers as actual "careers", and everything that goes with it (such as character outlook, drives, affiliations, personal philosophy, etc), they would see career transitions, especially between careers that are significantly different (like a wizard to anything else, or a priest to anything else), as more of a pivotal moment in the PC's life, rather than just "leveling up".

I also never said that what I was saying was the only way to play it, nor the "one-true-way", merely that it was my opinion backed up by information provided by FFG (which indicated their opinion on the matter). What is comes down to, of course, is that a GM is free to do what they want. It is their world. If a GM wants their Trollslayer to become a Scribe and then transition back to Giantslayer, without any reprecussions, they are free to allow that. Similarly, if a GM wants to allow an Acolyte to transition to a Mercenary, and then to a Wizard, without any roleplaying reprecussions, then they are also free to do that. Such transitions, as I have agreed, are not against the actual rules. However, there is evidence that if a GM wants to follow the the official setting material, then such transitions should be unusual and difficult.

I apologize if anyone reading my comments thought I was suggesting that my opinion was the only way to handle this situation, or if anyone thought I was denigrating them or suggesting they were "stupid".  It was not my intent to have that sort of message conveyed in any way.

 



#14 Immortus

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 04:09 AM

 I think they touch on this in the Tome of adventure in the Corebox set. 
There's a reference in the fluff about a wizard hinting at the differences or similarities between religion and the winds of power being similar but not daring to mention it to others.

This coupled with wizards being forbidden to access more than one flavour magic. There is also a very famous example of why priests shouldn't/wouldnt be allowed to dabble in magic and vise versa. Nagash. A Priest before a sorcerer and the novels point at his priest hood rituals heavily influencing his magic. dark in practice and intent but there is corruption everywhere.



#15 Callidon

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 06:27 AM

A human going from wizard to priest is unlikely due to...well...churches tend to burn witches (like almost all of them at a certain point besides maybe Shallya).  And even a "licensed" wizard is going to be seen by a lot of folks as a witch on a leash.  Take off the leash and you've got a witch trying to infiltrate the church!  Burn it!  I'd just make a snort sound and throw a cheeto at a player if they wanted to go from Bright Wizard to Ulrican...or vice versa.  Then we'd move on and inevitably make Monty Python jokes.  

A heretic doing it?  Sure.  But then they can access multiple schools of magic and bork daemonettes on Sunday.  If a human PC wants to cease being a PC to do it...fine.

An elf doing it?  I'd allow it, but I wouldn't want to have to do a work up for Elf deities (or even decide on a compatible Imperial cult) and their associated abilities since I'm lazy and it's easier for me to ask "how is this going to make the game more fun for everybody?"  I've been floored by responses at my table before so heck...maybe I'll end up doing just this someday.  But for now...dude...don't hurt my brain.

In terms of a wizard or priest choosing a new career outside their "typical" advancement track?  Sure.  Whether or not it was a change of focus or something else entirely I'd have to take on a case by case basis.  In the previoius editions I never got too bogged down in a player's current career and instead looked more at the character as a whole.  So just because someone had taken the champion career didn't necessarily mean they were a champion.  But if they were a knight...they had to actually be a knight complete with squireage and someone granting them knighthood in game.  SO I have taken the same mode of thinking to 3rd edition.  AKA sometimes it matters, and sometimes it doesn't as long as the RP and concept is good.

Obviously this is all only my opinion and by no means do I intend to force my Warhammer down or up anyone's anything.

 


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#16 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:01 PM

Callidon said:

An elf doing it?

Is a different issue; Elven and Dwarfen priests aren't like human ones - Dwarfs have no magical aptitude in any conventional sense, while Elves actually do understand the relationship between the Winds of Magic and what humans perceive as miracles. For Elves, there are spellcasting priests... but they'd be more akin to wizards entering a non-casting priest-type career, casting spells in the name of their patron deity in the same way a Warrior Priest of Sigmar fights in Sigmar's name.


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#17 Nisses

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 09:58 AM

Really, pick up the Winds of Magic & look for the Exeat wizards section.
It's quite literally discussed, as the Doc said.

 

In short, it's allowed, provided they don't pursue any other magic related profession, and those that leave, are watched very closely.
For example, I've currently got a scout from Middenheim, with natural aptitude for Ghur. She figured out beast speech on her own and transformed into a bobcat a few times, outside her own will. She's accepted training in order to become closer to nature, in a responsible way. But she is very likely to turn back to marksman or hunter. As long as she adheres to the tenets of her order, she should do fine.

 



#18 Pedro Lunaris

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 09:06 AM

This is actually quite the discussion. Makes me want and sudy it's subtleties. Unfortunately, I haven't go the time right now. 

The Player's Guide has an addendum about going from Wizard to Priest or vice versa being impossible, if I'm not mistaken, with the character retaining his ability to cast spells or conjure miracles. That's easy to understand. As it was already referred to here, magic and blessings are different ways of dealing with the same energies - even if this is kind of a secret held by the Colleges, and could be only the way they view things (if you can, check second edition Realms of Sorcery, I think it's the best source for this lore), the way to cast spells and to relate to the Gods are mutually exclusive. At least if we are talking about the Sanctioned Colleges of Magic and the official religious cults of the Empire. Out of this officiality, things could be a lot more intermingled, to the expense of the character's mind and body - and his probable persecution by the Witch Hunters.

You see, what marks the way College Wizards and Priests both use their powers is their complete comittment to the perceived source of this powers - the Winds of magic or the particular God.

That being said, I would rule as possibility, inside the reality of the world, for a character to change paths. To me that would mean this particular character passed through such a revelation that the way he wields and specially perceives the power he has access to changes completely. And then he would have to work some way to be let go by his superiors and also accepted in the hierarchy he now wants to follow. Not an easy task, and certainly one too possible to be understood as that of a herectical person. But certainly a story worth telling. 

In game terms, to me that would mean the character loses access to his previous powers and now has to start buying new ones in his new path. Maybe, if the story went that way, I would permit him to use part of his lost advances to start this progress - perhaps meaning that such a huge revelation would mean some of the knowledge previously gained would actually translate into a new form of understanding of the world. 

As to other forms of magic/priesthood, I do think that, in very different levels of comprehension and ability, herectical ways and the elves have something in common, and that is not actually separating the wielding of magic from the contact with divinity. To the elves, this is simply natural. To humans, this inevitably leads to corruption. 

Of course, that's quite different than a mage, who wields one of the winds of magic with his intellect, in a mixture of accute sensibility and mathematical precision, to be a devout follower of some God. The thing is, the methodology in which he deals with his powers, and the perceived source of them, is the Aethyr, and not his God talking through him. And that difference makes all the difference, actually.

At last, regarding changing for a non-magical career and back, I just think the story can rule it. There are descriptions of wizards that left the magical ways but continued in service of the Colleges as informants or any type of hired help. I figure it would be possible for such a character to go back to his wizarding ways, passing some test maybe. And as such, I do think some character could actually do his College biding by pursuing other ways of acting in the world for a time, as a form of expaning his particular fIeld of expertise.



#19 Pedro Lunaris

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 09:14 AM

 One last thing: as I was reading the commens about the Slayers careers, I recalled the Engineer Slayer pictured at Gotrek and Felix Daemonslayer, Malakai I think. He was a great engineer who shaved his head because his inventions tended to get a lot of dwarfs killed. But when Felix met him, inspite of being a Slayer, he was activelly acting as an engineer again. That would be the perfect example of a Slayer taking detours, or the contrary maybe. 

As such, even if I find the idea that a Career is not just a profession great, I think it could be. And also there are those careers that won't ever leave a character, as a dwarf who takes the Slayer oath, the already mentioned knight, and maybe the Grey Wizard learning how to act as a Thief to improve the more material aspects of his relation with Ulgu and exert at the biddings of his College.

The possibilities are limitless. Try them out!

And good gaming!

 






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