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#1 Shiferbrains

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 12:24 PM

 We have a character that is using Raptor+Charge+Swift Attack combined with some added cheese (namely a force weapon, warp time, precog. strike, and psy rating 6) to one shot nearly every boss we come across. While he is admittedly a glass canon, even he acknowledges something needs a nerfing.

The group has focused on nerfing the raptor+charge+swift attack part of the combo. The thought is either to limit charge attacks to single attacks or to limit raptor to only affecting the first hit of the swift attack hits.

Any thoughts would be gladly welcome. I'm worried that the GM will ramp the difficulty up so high, to account for our munchkin player,  that the rest of the group will be owned hard.



#2 Nimas

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 01:23 PM

Dear god, where to start?

Ok, first off, with raptor I'd say that the extra damage would only really be either when using it as a single attack, or more likely, the first hit from the swift attack.

Secondly, and this is something I had argued with others with earlier ;) NERF WARPTIME. Dear god that power is far too good for a mere 400xp. Some options our GM and I came up with; 1/2 PR to stats, Duration, or the one we've used, it gives the psyker a level of fatigue for each use, with it duration being PR. If cancelled early, still gives a fatigue level to stop someone from cheesing it :P

With force weapon, we've taken the route that the maximum amount of extra dice you can have for damage is = to PR. This is still a boatload of damage usually, but it does mean that if they wish to get higher amounts of damage, they have to start risking it with the unfettered/and or push.

Precog strike is fine, effectively a chance at getting +15 to hit at PR 6, because if you're using it unfettered you risk causing perils of the warp which tends to...auto-correct your psyker problems ;)

To be honest, you are always going to have a problem as soon as a psyker has both a force weapon and either swift or lightning attack.



#3 Reverend mort

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 02:26 PM

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=231&efcid=3&efidt=572690

The topic Nimas mentioned, to perhaps give you a more balanced view on the topic of warptime and it's supposed OMG OPness :P

Questions, however!

A) is this character the only combat focused character in the group? If not, what are the other ones, in broad strokes?

B) Dead god that's a lotta XP spent on meleeing. If this character was out of the equation, how well would the other character do against the kinda enemies/bosses you've fought so far? Where have they thrown their xp?

C) If the player himself admits he needs a nerf, why not just... stop using the incredibly efficient combination he's discovered? It's not like he needs to enter every combat with a raptor'ed, swift attack charge boosted with warptime and precog strike.

Oh, and if he admits there's a problem, he's not a munchkin! :D

D) What have these bosses been? Greater Daemons of Khorne, big bad berserkers, snipers? What have their "style" been in fights? Ranged snipers, full-auto beasts, melee monstrosities?



#4 Nimas

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 02:55 PM

Indeed Rev Mort and I have agreed to disagree on warptime.

Admitting the problem is only the first step remember, he may still be addicted to munchkiness ;)

One question I will second Rev on is how much xp has there been, because getting to PR 6 + warptime + Precog Strike + swift attack + raptor ALOT of experience. I mean, if there has been that much experience, you should experience a few things. Everyone in the party SHOULD be incredibly scary, and the more experience you get, the worse your psyker is most likely going to get. Psykers tend to take alot longer then other characters to hit diminishing returns, as there is just so many things they can get that greatly improves their character.



#5 Hpred

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 04:28 PM

I just hope our Psyckers don't find out about doing this.  Then I will be out of a job as the assaulting weapon of mass destruction.



#6 Adept Orcadius

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 07:22 AM

As having JUST finished handling a similar situation where I had a player that one shotted a tomb stalker....(technically killed it 1 n a half times)...with using all these things that "stack". my personal view and thoughts, and Kobalt and I also believe Rev Mort have helped me with my issue helped me come to said conclusion.

First: The player is going to have to come to that amazing popping noise, and realize that its not fun for others when they dont get to chip in and have their PC get to bash away at the (other) bad guy. this game isnt sposed to be a one horse show.

SECOND: just because a player CAN drop all those "stacking" talents and attacks doesnt mean they SHOULD, at least for that particular fight, or round....show some discretion cus becoming a show off is gonna cause issues.

personally I wish FFG would come up with some clarification on what stacks with other stuff, and how many times, etc....... cus for the guy in my game, he had I believe raptor+2xlightening claws+swift attack+furious assault+lightening attack +......well you get the idea. his roll(s) totalled (after getting thru TB and AP) 143 dam in a single turn...made everyone in the groups jaw drop, including mine.

 

my number one mistake was being the nice guy and letting the group starting with 2k xp.... I got fed up, scrubbed that game and had everyone restart by the book because there were so many problems giving me head aches.  

Lastly: as Ive shown from my own growing pains as a GM, what does the GM have to say about his powergaming????? since ultimately it is going to be his call as to what gets nerfed or how things are balanced.  Me: I just started over and every player in my game said that since it was giving me such head aches with balance and having let them start off too powerful they were fine with drawing up new PC's.

 



#7 Morangias

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:07 AM

Adept Orcadius said:

personally I wish FFG would come up with some clarification on what stacks with other stuff, and how many times, etc....... cus for the guy in my game, he had I believe raptor+2xlightening claws+swift attack+furious assault+lightening attack +......well you get the idea. his roll(s) totalled (after getting thru TB and AP) 143 dam in a single turn...made everyone in the groups jaw drop, including mine.

He, uh, didn't use all of those on his Charge attack, did he? Because half of that stuff is mutually exclusive.

Also, I find it highly unlikely that even with extremely good rolls, he managed to carry so much damage through 14 TB + 8 AP reduction applied separately to each and every hit.

 


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#8 Reverend mort

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:13 AM

Morangias said:

Adept Orcadius said:

 

personally I wish FFG would come up with some clarification on what stacks with other stuff, and how many times, etc....... cus for the guy in my game, he had I believe raptor+2xlightening claws+swift attack+furious assault+lightening attack +......well you get the idea. his roll(s) totalled (after getting thru TB and AP) 143 dam in a single turn...made everyone in the groups jaw drop, including mine.

 

 

He, uh, didn't use all of those on his Charge attack, did he? Because half of that stuff is mutually exclusive.

Also, I find it highly unlikely that even with extremely good rolls, he managed to carry so much damage through 14 TB + 8 AP reduction applied separately to each and every hit.

 



This.



#9 Morangias

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:54 AM

I wouldn't be particularly surprised if it happened in previous 40k systems, where the equivalent of Zealous Hatred allowed damage to be rolled infinitely - in fact, I've seen that happen several times.

But in BC? Even assuming something as outrageously improbable as only rolling 01 on attacks and rolling all tens on damage, even taking into account the stacking of dual Lightning Lightning Claws, extra damage from Raptor, and multiple hits from double Swift Attack... I just don't see that happening.

Twinked out Psyker with Warptime and multiple Killing Will cheese, yeah, that could happen. Otherwise? I'd really like to see the exact math.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#10 Adept Orcadius

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 09:19 AM

           MOR- He rolled out with 2 attacks with L claws and since he was blowing the DoS out of the water he was compounding the raptor attacks on, for another possible 4 attacks (each attack can be used twice for a max of 2d10 dam)......

EACH lightening claw: 1d10+6 E pen 8 power field, proven (4), special....come to think of it- what does the "special" special rule say? I cant seem to find it in my book.....

so he has high WS, modifiers in his favor to basically make it where he CANT miss..he almost aways is getting at least 2 degrees of success, so he charges with 2 attacks(not sure If I listed the talent that did that or not but he was making a big deal about having it so I know he was rolling with that.) 16+8 str mod for 24 dam per atack, say....4 DoS..(now with his bonus's and high WS that coulda been more.another 20 dam (potentially))....

42 dam just off one attack including raptor. +2 dam for crip strike= 44 per atack

88dam at pen 8? might not add up to what he rolled out with but still thats damn high

if you charge then immediately right after that you can pull a lightening attack.....

with a +40 to hit JUST from attacking the tomb stalker cus of its sizend a WS of 50-60ish +perks from modifires/other talents, he practically couldnt miss and could roll out with potentially another 6 attacks each at a possible total of 44dameach....that in itself is a possible 264 damage, then add the other 88 onto that and now chew into the TB14 and armor 8. yup its possible.

 

but the bottom line is, I screwed up and started a game with the PC's getting 2000xp outta the gait to blow and all this player did was dump stuff into making him a slaying machine.

the part where he did cheat (i dare say the word) is that like i said: you cant buy lightening claws as a pair according to the BC book unlike DW and with their rating of (i think) extremely rare...thats where he should have been shut down.

even with one claw, he could still stack enough stuff to pretty much one hit most elites and anything else I could reasonably toss at the group.

btw he did a roll after the session was over against another melee focused PC: killed him in one turn. and quite a few times on the crit scale...



#11 Adept Orcadius

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 09:21 AM

real fast since I missed it: does the AP and TB actually get applied to each HIT or per attack? or totalled up at the end?



#12 Morangias

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 09:28 AM

Adept Orcadius said:

real fast since I missed it: does the AP and TB actually get applied to each HIT or per attack? or totalled up at the end?

Each hit is compared to TB/AP separately.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#13 theshadowduke

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 09:34 AM

Each separate hit is reduced by Armor and toughness.  Make sure to remember that, as it tends to make damaging tough opponents even harder.  Thats why my group is a bit concerned about facing CSM right now, and we are at about 4k total spent xp.



#14 Narkasis Broon

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 10:36 AM

Also @Adept Orcadius in the previous editions of 40k melee attacks weren't affected by size modifiers, so thats -40 from your example case, I think that is still true in BC but might want to check.

As for the OP's question that combination does sound extremely potent, but not unbeatable. most important things to remember is to be strict with psychic powers, for every power he is presently maintaining he takes penalties on further power checks like killing will, so if he is PR6 and maintaining 2 powers I think he is only PR 4 for killing will. Also I believe in deathwatch it was errata'd that killing will could only be used on 1 hit per turn because it was a focus power test just to make sure you are using that correctly and finally perils and psychic phenomena rolls arent skill or characteristic tests, so the can't be affected by infamy. roll them behind a GM screen and make sure he realises that using 3 powerful psychic powers comes with a price from the warp.

In addition you might want to give your bosses a bit more character, I have a terrible munchkin in my games who atm has a bit of a fetish for melee weapons. I know that what he likes is to kill kill kill, so I tend to make sure that there is an enemy who can challenge him in mortal combat from time to time. noone knows how to build a melee death machine like this guy, so I tend to look at the kind of talents hes got and challenge him with an enemy who, for whatever reason, has similar talents. An example is I made him fight a necron lord with a chronometron (which I treated as a warp time effect) and a war scythe (this was before the new necrons) and suddenly for just one fight his storm shield was useless (I play a deathwatch BC hybrid). Over used this kind of mechanic can just annoy players because whatever they have you have better, but when I design my challenging final battle encounters i tend to consider that my space marine players are the equivalent of chaos lords in the wargame, and design my enemies accordingly, I tend to use the better part of a 1000 point table top army in my battles, with tanks for the heavy weapon specialists to take out, and a melee hero to challenge my melee player in single combat and a psyker for psyker duels, and some units of cultists or guard or whatever to fill out the blanks.

What I am trying to say is try challenging them not with one giant monster, but with a tactical army instead, with certain enemies tailored to each of them to fight. 



#15 Reverend mort

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:09 AM

if you charge then immediately right after that you can pull a lightening attack.....

No you can't. First of all, charging is a full action, so no half action left to lightning attack with. Secondly, if he's already delivered two sets of swift attack via the charge, he's used both of his dual-wield attacks, thus he's out of attacks. Third, that's performing two separate actions with the attack subtype, which is prohibited.

Also, with a WS of 40ish (judging by the damage from Crippling strike, which is half of his WS bonus) he's capped at 4 attacks per swift attack, which would require 8 DoS. While he might score more with enough bonuses, he can't get more hits in. Multiple hits from both Lightning and Swift attack is capped at your WS bonus. Thus, two-weapon wielding with Lightning claws would score him a maximum of 8 hits.

come to think of it- what does the "special" special rule say? I cant seem to find it in my book.....


It's listed under the Lightning Claw entry. Basically, when wielding one, each DoS adds +1 to the damage. When wielding two, it adds +2 per DoS. How this combines with Lightning attack is unknown IIRC. Certainly not clear from the text itself.

real fast since I missed it: does the AP and TB actually get applied to each HIT or per attack? or totalled up at the end?


Per hit. So of those 24 damage hits, it would have soaked up 14 points from each. Furthermore, while it lacks the skill, if it had a reaction it could have either dodged or parried at -20 for being untrained (or -30, too tired to check). Which, since both characteristics are at 55, might have removed a hit or two. Remember, it's not a true opposed test, but rather one where each DoS negates one hit.
 

Also @Adept Orcadius in the previous editions of 40k melee attacks weren't affected by size modifiers, so thats -40 from your example case, I think that is still true in BC but might want to check.

The BC rules do not, as far as I can see, make any mention of the to-hit bonus/penalty from size only applying to Ranged weapons. Which, considering the general unification of the ranged and melee rules, I'd probably call an intended change.

As for the OP's question that combination does sound extremely potent, but not unbeatable. most important things to remember is to be strict with psychic powers, for every power he is presently maintaining he takes penalties on further power checks like killing will, so if he is PR6 and maintaining 2 powers I think he is only PR 4 for killing will. Also I believe in deathwatch it was errata'd that killing will could only be used on 1 hit per turn because it was a focus power test just to make sure you are using that correctly and finally perils and psychic phenomena rolls arent skill or characteristic tests, so the can't be affected by infamy. roll them behind a GM screen and make sure he realises that using 3 powerful psychic powers comes with a price from the warp.

Few not trues there. The sustaining penalty is most likely only for other sustained powers. Secondly, it only kicks it when sustaining two or more powers, which is not needed for most warp-time using sorcerers, unless they're throwing in telekinetic shield or something. Regardless, killing will would most likely be unaffected.

The Deathwatch Errata also isn't really applicable. You can manifest killing will with every hit, since it's A) a free action and thus not bound by the "two different half action" rule and B) subtype free and thus not bound by the "No more than one attack or concentration subtype action per round" rule. However, house ruling a maximum amount per round is not a necessarily bad idea. Or, more deviously, preventing it's use while fettered. 10% chances build up quickly :). Also, here the +X to psychic phenomena penalty of sustained powers WOULD kick in.

What I am trying to say is try challenging them not with one giant monster, but with a tactical army instead, with certain enemies tailored to each of them to fight.

I endorse this! Tailored, tactically aware and diverse enemies are not only far more credible threat, but a lot more fun to fight. It allows players to get to react to unusual tactics rather than merely dodging the same lumbering beast's lethal blows, it makes them feel useful because there's something for them to "contribute" to and it also helps create fantastic spotlight moments for every character, with the psyker engaging in a tense battle of the minds and warpflame, the melee guy having a pitched and tense duel atop the wreckage of the entire tank battalion eradicated by the anti-armor specialist.



#16 Morangias

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:33 AM

As far as I remember, size modifiers always affected both melee and ranged attacks.

Hmm, let me think.

Yeah, he can one-shot a Tomb Stalker with good rolls. I've yet to calculate if they must be above average and how much so, but he can do it.

That's... disturbing.

Still, there are some discrepancies in his routine, that Reverend Mort already pointed out. If he Charges, he can either use Swift Attack (possibly double due to dual wielding, but that's somewhat debatable) or he can use All-Out Attack and follow up with Furious Assault if the first hit connects, but cannot use Swift Attack and follow up with Furious Assault - and using Lightning Attack along with Furious Assault is right out of question.

EDIT: Oh and Rev, Crippling Strike is a flat +2 crit damage. You were thinking of Crushing Blow, I believe.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#17 Reverend mort

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:59 AM

Morangias said:

As far as I remember, size modifiers always affected both melee and ranged attacks.

Hmm, let me think.

Yeah, he can one-shot a Tomb Stalker with good rolls. I've yet to calculate if they must be above average and how much so, but he can do it.

That's... disturbing.

Still, there are some discrepancies in his routine, that Reverend Mort already pointed out. If he Charges, he can either use Swift Attack (possibly double due to dual wielding, but that's somewhat debatable) or he can use All-Out Attack and follow up with Furious Assault if the first hit connects, but cannot use Swift Attack and follow up with Furious Assault - and using Lightning Attack along with Furious Assault is right out of question.

EDIT: Oh and Rev, Crippling Strike is a flat +2 crit damage. You were thinking of Crushing Blow, I believe.



Ahh, yes, correct... but wait. Zealous Hatred doesn't stack with talents that boost the crit damage. Furthermore, it doesn't actually count as critical damage for the purposes of other critical damage, does it?



#18 Morangias

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 12:23 PM

Yes, that is correct.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#19 Hpred

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 05:40 PM

Two words:....

 

FIELD SAVES.

 

I said it.  Just give your bosses force fields so that they have a chance of shrugging off the damage and watch the melee monsters jaw drop when his insane damage gets reduced to ZERO.  I play the Melee Monster / Multi Enemy Spec in our group and the group found out just why I do it as there was a game night on my brother's birthday.  He did not want to go that night but stay home and watch footballs so that is what we did.  That event saw the group have to go up against a horde like enemy and from what I have heard two of the party members got dropped in the encounter sense they where range Spec and not set up for melee fighting against multiple enemies.



#20 Adept Orcadius

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:34 PM

Reverend mort said:

if you charge then immediately right after that you can pull a lightening attack.....

No you can't. First of all, charging is a full action, so no half action left to lightning attack with. Secondly, if he's already delivered two sets of swift attack via the charge, he's used both of his dual-wield attacks, thus he's out of attacks. Third, that's performing two separate actions with the attack subtype, which is prohibited.
BTW- Like ive said before, im new and I wasnt trying to sound snippy about the "yea you can actually"....this was me simply relaying my experience with a somewhat similar situation and what happened. whether i got a fast one pulled on me Im not fully sure. So I apologize if any readers thought i was trying to be an A-hole to them.

REV-This was my understanding but i asked multiple ppl locally and (yes i will go back n thoroughly re-read this) there was something that since charging is consided a standard action (or something of that nature) even though it is a full action something in there allowed a "free half action"......I agree it does sound not right but.....appearantly I have gamers n friends that sit up at night trying to dream ways to OP the hell outta combat.


Also, with a WS of 40ish (judging by the damage from Crippling strike, which is half of his WS bonus) he's capped at 4 attacks per swift attack, which would require 8 DoS. While he might score more with enough bonuses, he can't get more hits in. Multiple hits from both Lightning and Swift attack is capped at your WS bonus. Thus, two-weapon wielding with Lightning claws would score him a maximum of 8 hits.
 

He had a WS of 50-62...not in the 40's so if you are doing the X2 method fer 2 wep weilder then he coulda had 12 hits possible...
come to think of it- what does the "special" special rule say? I cant seem to find it in my book.....

It's listed under the Lightning Claw entry. Basically, when wielding one, each DoS adds +1 to the damage. When wielding two, it adds +2 per DoS. How this combines with Lightning attack is unknown IIRC. Certainly not clear from the text itself.

Well from that just off the lightening claws he was getting 4-6 DoS per attack....so.....??? what is that like 8 extra dam???? something close probably...

real fast since I missed it: does the AP and TB actually get applied to each HIT or per attack? or totalled up at the end?


Per hit. So of those 24 damage hits, it would have soaked up 14 points from each. Furthermore, while it lacks the skill, if it had a reaction it could have either dodged or parried at -20 for being untrained (or -30, too tired to check). Which, since both characteristics are at 55, might have removed a hit or two. Remember, it's not a true opposed test, but rather one where each DoS negates one hit.
 okay so I learned something new.....so we were doing it wrong more than likely...good to know thanks.

Also @Adept Orcadius in the previous editions of 40k melee attacks weren't affected by size modifiers, so thats -40 from your example case, I think that is still true in BC but might want to check.

The BC rules do not, as far as I can see, make any mention of the to-hit bonus/penalty from size only applying to Ranged weapons. Which, considering the general unification of the ranged and melee rules, I'd probably call an intended change.

under the profile for the tomb stalker it says size: 6 (i think) plus the picture shows it about to death blow a rhino apc.... we went to the chart under the minion creation area to see what a 6 was and listed Enormous, and had a +20 or +40 to hit. it did not specify if ranged or melee were excluded but basically if you had a WS of 40 you could hit it on a 60. I know some of you all go backwards on the 0-100 scale so Im just going by what my group uses which is the roll at or under method.

Again, I am NOT trying to prove or disprove anyone, just simply lay out what was noticed by myself other players with sharp memories and what I witnessed. either way though Lightening Claws are (in my opnion and short of deamon weps) the best friggin weapon in the BC game. cus you can still take a jump pack n with the right perks drop around 88 damage (total) in a single round....wich - the 22 from TB an APwould only really amount to about....around 4-10 dam per attack that got thru...but this was a MASTER enemy I had them encounter. Thank you all for the illumination on combat.






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