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Engineer's Repair Vehicles?


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#1 waging_war

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:26 AM

Does anybody have a working, play-tested, house rule for an ability which allows engineers to repair damaged vehicles? Have they added this ability in any expansions? (I only have the base set)



#2 KlausFritsch

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:41 PM

waging_war said:

 

Does anybody have a working, play-tested, house rule for an ability which allows engineers to repair damaged vehicles?

 

 

No, and I do not think there should be one. In rounds representing only a couple of minutes, even Scotty could not repair a damaged Sherman.



#3 waging_war

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:57 PM

KlausFritsch said:

waging_war said:

 

Does anybody have a working, play-tested, house rule for an ability which allows engineers to repair damaged vehicles?

 

 

No, and I do not think there should be one. In rounds representing only a couple of minutes, even Scotty could not repair a damaged Sherman.

Ya, I thought about it after and decided it was a bad idea. Tanks would be invincible if they could just pull back, get repaired and take another run at somebody.



#4 Hefsgaard

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:03 AM

Engineers can dig foxholes as an action, så why could mechanics not fix a track or similar to make a vehicle combatative again?

 



#5 Latro

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:33 PM

Hefsgaard said:

Engineers can dig foxholes as an action, så why could mechanics not fix a track or similar to make a vehicle combatative again?

 

 

Because creating a protected firing position can be as easy as setting off an explosive charge and fixing something as "simple" as a broken track takes a heck of a lot longer.

 



#6 RAF1945

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:25 AM

 It have to be difficult and annonying or tanks and engineers would rock too much maybe where they have to stay in the same hex and you could, as an action, order the engineer to fix it succeeding on roll of "5 or 6" or maybe even just a "6".



#7 Hefsgaard

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 10:20 AM

and yet tank repair is already in the game.....



#8 KlausFritsch

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 10:47 PM

Hefsgaard said:

 

and yet tank repair is already in the game.....

 

 

I know, I know... no idea what that card is meant to represent thematically.... healing potions for tanks?

Maybe it is for those instances when nothing serious is wrong with the vehicle, but only minor obstructions or faults have to be cleared for the tank to operate (better) again. No idea.

More designer's notes would have been very nice...



#9 BJaffe01

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:58 AM

the card probably is supposed to represent boogy wheels out of line or jammed turret fixed

BJaffe01



#10 Kingtiger

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:06 PM

I don't know why some people keep on insisting that TOI battles represent only relatively minor engagements that last up to an hour or so at best. Just by looking at the titles of the scenarios, it becomes obvious that many of these represent much larger and longer battles. Sure, they may have said something to this effect in the original rule book, but in practice they obviously don't stick to it too much. I don't have any problem with this whatsoever as TOI isn't and does not claim to be a true to life WW2 simulation as e.g. ASL is. So in some scenarios one tank may be just that, in others it may be a platoon and in some it may represent dozens of tanks. the same goes for the time span and scale of the map: sometimes one turn might represent a few minutes, in others a day and in yet others perhaps several days, in some cases the map might span up to a few hundred metres, in others a kilometre, and in some cases perhaps five or even more.

Need more "proof"?How about the weather rules?: Does the weather really change 5 times within a game if that game only represents several minutes? The heat exhaustion, supply shortages etc. Do these really occur within a matter of minutes?

See my point? 



#11 Grand Stone

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 02:45 AM

Kingtiger said:

Need more "proof"?How about the weather rules?: Does the weather really change 5 times within a game if that game only represents several minutes? The heat exhaustion, supply shortages etc. Do these really occur within a matter of minutes?

See my point? 

 

You have obviusly not been to Norway, becaus YES, here the weather CAN change 5 times in an hour :) But, thats maybe besides the point.

 

From a practical point of view though, if repearing tanks was to easy an tank+engineer would rock the battlefield to the point it could feel stupid. So for me its all about the power of an repear action. If it is moderatly usefull, but not overpowering, I dont see any reason why not making a operation card for it.  For example exhausting both the engineer AND the tank for one (or maybe two) rounds, only allowing repear of lightly damaged vehicles, include a die roll (only if 4+ for example) are some example of how not overpowering the action.

Besides, these things is all about the scenario designer anyway. If the scenario designer wants to tell a story which repearing tanks is important, he/she should be allowed to do so.

 

By the way the card (is it in the supplies deck?)  is a once per game ability, which is fair enough. 



#12 Grand Stone

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 02:47 AM

... and I miss wether deck for the russian front...



#13 Koa Kahiko

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 04:12 AM

If an AFV breaks down in the middle of a combat action the crew is likely to bail out or stay put. They are not likely to dismount and try to complete repairs. bad for the health. Even getting a thrown track back on the wheels is a tricky proposition and requires someone outside the vehicle observing as the driver tries to ease the track back on the wheel. Not a good thing to be doing while people are shooting at you.



#14 KlausFritsch

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 10:39 AM

Kingtiger said:

I don't know why some people keep on insisting that TOI battles represent only relatively minor engagements that last up to an hour or so at best.

 

Because the relative movement values and most of all the weapon ranges do not work at other scales. That is also what most annoys me about Memoir 44. Just to sell the game to more people, the scale is "floating". Have you ever seen infantry companies/battalions/brigades/divisions shoot at targets several miles away? Or infantry march in one day 66% of the distance a tank unit can cover in a day? At larger scales, all motorized forces need raod bonuses, too.

The numerical values in ToI only work at the tactical level.

This "broadening" of the scope coupled with changing game designers and really sloppy use of terminology is also what caused all the consistency problems with ToI that keep the game from being what it could be.



#15 VolksCamper

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 09:40 AM

They just need to modify a few rules, and TOI will be a little better IMO.

1. Give infantry squads movement of 2pts, with one extra hex move if on road. All non clear terrain costs infantry 2 pts. All clear terrain 1pt. On road, infantry can move up to 3 hexes. This corrects the illogical notion that infantry on foot can move as many hexes as a truck going cross country. A truck can move at least 15mph across most off road terrain, so it would move at least twice as far a squad on foot would in the same amount of time.

2. Make transportation of infantry/AT guns simple. Any halftrack, truck or tank can act as a carrier to transport an infantry squad, with exception that mortar and MG squads cannot ride on tanks. To Transport, a carrier is activated with an advance action, starts in or moves into  a hex with a squad. The squad can then load without spending any pts, and then rather than remove squad base, just then move carrier and squad to the destination hex. Upon ending move in that hex, both squad and carrier are fatigued.. To denote this, place 2 fatigue markers stacked one on top of the other, which shows both units are fatigued but signifies only one action has been used.

3. Allow halftrack and tanks to also transport using the fire and move action, if beginning turn in same hex with squad. The tank or halftrack is activated and then you move both squad and halftrack together up to half (rounded up) the carriers movement allowance. Upon completion of the move, both squad and halftrack may combine fire at half strength a target in range of both. Same for tanks. Tank and squad fire at half strength at same target in range of both.

3b. A Halftrack or Tank/TD which uses fire and move, may only move up to half (rounded up) of its movement allowance. For consideration of difference between turreted tanks vs. SPGs: SPGs can only move 1/4th their movement if using fire and move.

4. For AT guns: AT guns which are considered part of a squad  may be tranported by halftrack or truck along with that squad in the same way, and at the completion of move of carrier, squad, AT gun and carrier are fatigued (stack 3 fatigue markers). The move only requires the one action of advance. A squad with AT gun cannot be tranported with fire and move action however., or by tank or TD or SPG.

5. Squads & AT guns are always considered unloaded when beginning the turn in same hex with a carrier. Only during the movement action is the squad considered loaded, thus may only be fired upon in loaded condition by an enemy unit in OP fire which executes that Op fire on the carrier and squad as they move at least one hex in LOS of the Op fire unit.

6. To resolve Op fire on transported squad and AT guns: The carrier is the target, which is attacked, and if destroyed, roll a 6 sided die to determine if squad, and or AT gun survived according to what type of carrier: If damaged, the carrier may still continue to move, only one mp is lost.

A.If carrier is halftrack, and is destroyed, a die roll of 1,2 ,3 destroys AT gun, and that number of casualites are removed from squad. 4,5,6= no effect, and squad /AT gun  are considered unloaded, but immediately fatigued.

B.If carrier is a truck and destroyed, 1,2,3,4 destroys AT gun, and that many no. of casualties to squad. 5-6 = no effect. Surviving squad and or AT gun is then considered unloaded but both are immediately fatigued.

C.If carrier is a tank, regardless of effect of attack on tank, the squad must roll a casualtie die roll of 1,2,3 causiing that no. of casualites to squad. 4,5,6  is no effect. The squad is then considered unloaded and is immediately fatigued.

7.Tanks take 3 levels of damage: light, medium, heavy. 1-2 = light 3-4=medium 5-6= heavy

Medium damage causes movement to be halved, and Fire power -2

 

 

 

 

 



#16 KlausFritsch

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 05:39 PM

BJaffe01 said:

the card probably is supposed to represent boogy wheels out of line or jammed turret fixed

I agree, that still makes the most sense in a tactical setting.



#17 Hefsgaard

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 07:54 AM

They just need to modify a few rules, and TOI will be a little better IMO.

1. Give infantry squads movement of 2pts, with one extra hex move if on road. All non clear terrain costs infantry 2 pts. All clear terrain 1pt. On road, infantry can move up to 3 hexes. This corrects the illogical notion that infantry on foot can move as many hexes as a truck going cross country. A truck can move at least 15mph across most off road terrain, so it would move at least twice as far a squad on foot would in the same amount of time.

How on earth would infantry ever reach a target before time runs out? or more likely they are eaten up my MG's in OP-fire.
Have you ever driven a ww2 truck across a european field? If its freshly plowed you will be doing well if you do 5 km/h, and more likely you won't get anywhere at all.

 

2. Make transportation of infantry/AT guns simple. Any halftrack, truck or tank can act as a carrier to transport an infantry squad, with exception that mortar and MG squads cannot ride on tanks. To Transport, a carrier is activated with an advance action, starts in or moves into  a hex with a squad. The squad can then load without spending any pts, and then rather than remove squad base, just then move carrier and squad to the destination hex. Upon ending move in that hex, both squad and carrier are fatigued.. To denote this, place 2 fatigue markers stacked one on top of the other, which shows both units are fatigued but signifies only one action has been used.

Why not Mortars and MG's? not room in truck?
Beware that this way of doing transport is highly exploitable by Flip-Flop.
Why would it be nessesary to mark that only one action has been used? It is not that difficult to keep track of acttions.

 

3. Allow halftrack and tanks to also transport using the fire and move action, if beginning turn in same hex with squad. The tank or halftrack is activated and then you move both squad and halftrack together up to half (rounded up) the carriers movement allowance. Upon completion of the move, both squad and halftrack may combine fire at half strength a target in range of both. Same for tanks. Tank and squad fire at half strength at same target in range of both.

This is powerfull, I can just picture a Tiger moving with a flamethrower squad......
I do not think anyone actualy went into battle in top of a tank or inside a transport. I actualy do not think you could have Made anyone do that!

 

3b. A Halftrack or Tank/TD which uses fire and move, may only move up to half (rounded up) of its movement allowance. For consideration of difference between turreted tanks vs. SPGs: SPGs can only move 1/4th their movement if using fire and move.

Once again attackers can't seem to make a deadline anymore. Assaultguns were actualy meant to advance with infantry, not be stuck on the baseline.

 

4. For AT guns: AT guns which are considered part of a squad  may be tranported by halftrack or truck along with that squad in the same way, and at the completion of move of carrier, squad, AT gun and carrier are fatigued (stack 3 fatigue markers). The move only requires the one action of advance. A squad with AT gun cannot be tranported with fire and move action however., or by tank or TD or SPG.

But AT-guns are not considered part of a squad at all!
I have yet to read about a battle in which AT-gun were moved around by transports. Horse Artillery flashback.

 

5. Squads & AT guns are always considered unloaded when beginning the turn in same hex with a carrier. Only during the movement action is the squad considered loaded, thus may only be fired upon in loaded condition by an enemy unit in OP fire which executes that Op fire on the carrier and squad as they move at least one hex in LOS of the Op fire unit.

Which basicaly makes a transport & At-gun into a limited tank. Either fire or move.

 

6. To resolve Op fire on transported squad and AT guns: The carrier is the target, which is attacked, and if destroyed, roll a 6 sided die to determine if squad, and or AT gun survived according to what type of carrier: If damaged, the carrier may still continue to move, only one mp is lost.

A.If carrier is halftrack, and is destroyed, a die roll of 1,2 ,3 destroys AT gun, and that number of casualites are removed from squad. 4,5,6= no effect, and squad /AT gun  are considered unloaded, but immediately fatigued.

B.If carrier is a truck and destroyed, 1,2,3,4 destroys AT gun, and that many no. of casualties to squad. 5-6 = no effect. Surviving squad and or AT gun is then considered unloaded but both are immediately fatigued.

C.If carrier is a tank, regardless of effect of attack on tank, the squad must roll a casualtie die roll of 1,2,3 causiing that no. of casualites to squad. 4,5,6  is no effect. The squad is then considered unloaded and is immediately fatigued.

And the AT-gun Tank just became even better. I can now survive being destroyed in battle, at least sometimes.

 

7.Tanks take 3 levels of damage: light, medium, heavy. 1-2 = light 3-4=medium 5-6= heavy

This has some merrit as tanks are at bit easy to destroy, but again it will tilt ballance of scenarios considerably.

Taken as a whole, it is a diffrent game altogether. None of the current scenarios will work with these infantry movement rules



#18 VolksCamper

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:04 PM

Thats right. This version of TOI is a simplified version. If you do not like the modification for infantry, then leave it out, and continue to play the fantasy version of infantry moving as fast as they would if transported by truck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#19 waging_war

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 03:18 PM

I think the game is fine the way it is. To add or adjust a rule here and there is one thing but to completely overhaul the rulebook is just going overboard. Tide of Iron isn't a simulation that's supposed to be completely realistic in every aspect. It's a game. A very good game and it's fine the way it is.



#20 Grand Stone

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:53 PM

I might agree that movement at times seems unrealistic high.  However, I'm in great favor in playing the scenario as intended, as it was playtested. Its booring as hell to play an unbalanced scenario, and many of them are unbalanced even if playing with the rules as written.

 






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