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Lightning Attack, Two-Weapon Wielder, and Multiple Arms


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#1 PrinceOfMadness

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 02:49 PM

Am I interpreting this right?  A monster or character with Two-Weapon Wielder, Lightning Attack, and at least four arms can make three separate Lightning Attacks?  Provided the relevant text below:

The rules for Two-Weapon Fighting (page 244):

"If a character with the Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee) Talent is armed with two melee weapons, he may perform a melee Attack Action (either a Standard Attack, Swift Attack, or Lightning Attack) with one of these weapons.  He may then perform a melee Attack Action (either a Standard Attack, Swift Attack, or Lightning Attack) with the other weapon, with any applicable modifiers to the Test.  This target may be against any target in melee."

Okay, seems pretty clear.  The being can take two Lightning Attack actions, one with each hand, along with appropriate penalties, described below:

  • -10 for Lightning Attack
  • -20 on main hand, -40 on off hand if the entity possess only Two-Weapon Wielder
  • -10 on both hands if the entity is Ambidextrous and has Two-Weapon Wielder
  • +0 on both hands if the entity has Blade Dancer, Two-Weapon Wielder, and is Ambidextrous

The rules for Multiple Arms (X) (page 141)

"...for each pair of arms it has - the Multiple Arms value divided by 2 - it may make an additional attack as if wielding multiple melee weapons..."

This is the unclear bit.  It says you can take an additional attack, not an additional attack action.  Am I then limited to a single attack with the Multiple Arms?  Or is it a typo?  I'm building a custom monster for an upcoming game, and trying to figure out how many attacks it's going to get, as well as figuring out the appropriate penalties, so please let me know if I'm missing anything.



#2 DJSunhammer

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 08:14 PM

Here is my reasoning.

1. If you dual wield full auto weapons, you can fire them both on full auto as part of your attack action.

2. Lightning Attack, more or less, is equal to full auto fire. Therefor you can Lightning attack with both hands in the same way that you can full auto with both hands.

3. More hands? More Lightning attacks [and full autos.]

I hope that helps. Also, because I forgot the first time, ambidextrous applies as normal, so does Blade Dancer.



#3 Hpred

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 04:51 PM

Well, I know that you can't use Lightning Attack with the mutation: Tail(Khorne) .  Now my question is, if I where to take Exotic Weapon Pro: Tail(Khorne) would I be able to start making Lightning Attacks with it?



#4 Reverend mort

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 01:43 AM

Hpred said:

Well, I know that you can't use Lightning Attack with the mutation: Tail(Khorne) .  Now my question is, if I where to take Exotic Weapon Pro: Tail(Khorne) would I be able to start making Lightning Attacks with it?



Nope. Proficiency doesn't allow new actions with a weapon, it merely eliminates the penalties for not knowing the weapon. Furthermore, the tail is an unarmed attack, you're proficient in that by default.

However, since it merely grants an additional attack... well, you can lightning attack with it, presuming it's treated as an unarmed attack in all forms.



#5 Hpred

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:34 AM

Well, that just made my tail that much more dangerous.  Thanks for the heads up.



#6 Reverend mort

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 06:21 AM

Hpred said:

 

Well, that just made my tail that much more dangerous.  Thanks for the heads up.

 



Note that "additional attack" is open to interpretation. It could be read that you add another hit, or that you get an entire new attack roll whenever you attack, as if you were two-weapon fighting (possibly requiring the two-weapon fighting talent and taking all the appropriate penalties) or it could be read in any multitude of weird ways that could be either exploited or used to add so much complexity that your attack action takes 10 minutes.

Talk to your gm, work out what works for you.

Personally, I'd probably suggest that you can either wail with your tail as if you were using unarmed attacks, applying any relevant bonuses/penalties for that atop any alignment bonuses from the tail, or you can make a single extra attack with it during another melee attack, to represent it's use as a surprise weapon. As if you were two-weapon fighting, basically, but the tail is capped at a single standard attack, no lighting attack etc.

Stacking it with two-weapon fighting (and god forbid multiple arms) as if it was another weapon would be a bit... annoyingly slow, if not necessarily horribly unbalanced.

On the topic of how to deal with multiple arms and lighting attacks/full autos... DjSunhammer's interpretation seems to be the most RAW sensible one. However, all I see when I read it is the utterly insane amounts of attack resolutions, and the almost instant disappearance of a large number of reactions.

How to deal with that is an entirely different kettle of fish...

 



#7 Hpred

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 04:59 AM

DJSunhammer said:

Here is my reasoning.

1. If you dual wield full auto weapons, you can fire them both on full auto as part of your attack action.

2. Lightning Attack, more or less, is equal to full auto fire. Therefor you can Lightning attack with both hands in the same way that you can full auto with both hands.

3. More hands? More Lightning attacks [and full autos.]

I hope that helps. Also, because I forgot the first time, ambidextrous applies as normal, so does Blade Dancer.

If you look up Swift Attack, you will see in the last paragraph that you can not us Lightning Attack with both hands if you are Two-Weapon Fighting.  I find this to be a really weird place to put that information.



#8 Reverend mort

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:32 AM

Hpred said:

DJSunhammer said:

 

Here is my reasoning.

1. If you dual wield full auto weapons, you can fire them both on full auto as part of your attack action.

2. Lightning Attack, more or less, is equal to full auto fire. Therefor you can Lightning attack with both hands in the same way that you can full auto with both hands.

3. More hands? More Lightning attacks [and full autos.]

I hope that helps. Also, because I forgot the first time, ambidextrous applies as normal, so does Blade Dancer.

 

 

If you look up Swift Attack, you will see in the last paragraph that you can not us Lightning Attack with both hands if you are Two-Weapon Fighting.  I find this to be a really weird place to put that information.



And if you look up up the two-weapon fighting section, you'll see that it says you can lightning attack with both weapons. The rules for two-weapon fighting are among the most unclear and contradictory ones in the game. It's basically just picking which of the many, many interpretations you wish to play with.



#9 vogue69

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:12 AM

and if you check the rules question answers you'll see that you can make 2 lightning attacks for one half-action.



#10 Hpred

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:49 PM

Where is this Rules Questions Answers?  That way I can show it to our DM.



#11 Colwolf

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 09:20 PM

This is a question that bothers me as well. I just started a BC group and would love to have clarification on how Attacks are handled with the Two-Weapon Wielder. The rules are a mess, the FAQ/Errata ignores this topic completley, so I really would like to have a clear point of view on this one.

 






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